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From “Bloody Knuckles” to the Boardroom: Executive Search Secrets with Tony Hazen

Discover executive search secrets with Tony Hazen of DHR Global. Learn why grit beats pedigree, how to hire a CFO, and the key to scaling your business.
Guest
Tony Hazen
Published on
January 27, 2026

Introduction

In a world often obsessed with Ivy League pedigrees, grit and tenacity still reign supreme. This episode of From Boots to Boardroom features Tony Hazen, a veteran executive recruiter who built his career on hard work rather than a shiny diploma. Tony joins host Hari Vasudevan to pull back the curtain on the high-stakes world of executive search, revealing what it really takes to build a leadership team that can scale a business from a founder-led startup to an industry powerhouse. If you are an entrepreneur struggling to "let go" or a leader looking to understand the art of the perfect hire, this episode is a masterclass in value creation through people.

Key Takeaways

  • Prioritize Grit: Candidates who have had to fight for their success often bring a level of resilience and work ethic that pedigree cannot match.
  • Scale Requires Structure: Taking a company to the next level (1 to N) requires professionalizing your leadership team; you cannot do it alone.
  • Engage Your Recruiter: A search firm isn't just a Rolodex; they are partners who need your time to understand your culture and intuitive needs.
  • Hire a Strategic CFO: A strong CFO is critical for managing working capital, lender relationships, and preparing a company for sale.
  • Fit Trumps Brand: A "perfect" resume is useless if the candidate doesn't align with your company's values and culture.

About the Guest: Tony Hazen

Tony Hazen is a Managing Partner at the Houston office of DHR Global, one of the world's largest executive search firms. With over two decades of experience, Tony specializes in placing senior leaders within industrial sectors and private equity-backed companies—places "where people are wearing hard hats doing dangerous things".

Unlike many in his field who rely on elite backgrounds, Tony prides himself on his "blue-collar" approach to the C-suite. His ability to relate to everyone from the factory floor to the boardroom allows him to find leaders who drive true operational excellence. As Tony puts it, "It's the partnership that's the key with Executive Search."

The "Bloody Knuckles" Advantage

In the polished world of executive search, resumes often do the talking. However, Tony Hazen believes his non-traditional path gives him a distinct edge. Describing his journey as one of "bloody knuckles," Tony emphasizes that his success wasn't handed to him; it was earned through sheer effort and grit.

This background allows him to build trust quickly with clients who have built their own businesses from the ground up. "I think the ability for me to relate to people from a lot of different backgrounds has been something that's helped me be a better partner," Tony explains. For entrepreneurs and hiring managers, the lesson is clear: look beyond the pedigree. Often, the candidate with the most hunger and resilience will drive more value than the one with the most prestigious degree.

The Entrepreneur’s Dilemma: Knowing When to Let Go

One of the hardest transitions for a founder is moving from "doing it all" to building a management team. Tony notes that while entrepreneurs possess a unique skill set to take a company from zero to $25 million, scaling beyond that often requires a different kind of leadership.

  • The Trap: Founders often feel they don't need a recruiter or a C-suite executive because they've managed fine so far.
  • The Reality: To professionalize and scale, you need leaders who specialize in specific functions, like a CFO or COO.
  • The Solution: Recognize that bringing in a management team isn't a sign of weakness; it's a necessary evolution—just like Microsoft or Facebook did to reach the next level.

Tony observes that once entrepreneurs realize he respects their achievement and isn't there to dictate terms, the partnership flourishes, allowing them to "peel back the onion" and find the right talent to scale.

Why the CFO is Your Most Critical Hire

When scaling a business, especially one backed by private equity, the Chief Financial Officer (CFO) is often the MVP of the C-suite. While entrepreneurs might undervalue the need for robust financials early on, Tony and Hari agree that a strategic CFO is essential for future growth.

A great CFO does more than just count beans; they:

  • Manage Relationships: Handle complex relationships with lenders and financial institutions.
  • Drive Efficiency: Can dramatically improve working capital even while the company grows.
  • Market the Company: Play a pivotal role in "marketing and selling that company" when it's time to exit, giving buyers comfort with what's "underneath the covers".

Culture Over Pedigree: The Larry LeBlanc Story

Perhaps the most powerful insight from the episode is the importance of cultural fit over a "shiny object" resume. Hari shares a story about hiring his CFO, Larry LeBlanc. The choice was between Larry, a graduate of UT Arlington, and a candidate with a Harvard degree.

Despite the allure of the Ivy League brand, they chose Larry because of his cultural alignment with the company—a decision that paid off immensely. Tony explains that finding this fit requires the CEO to be deeply engaged. "I won't do searches if the key stakeholder is not gonna be actively involved... because I can't gauge culture," Tony asserts. By spending time with the recruiter, you allow them to use their intuition to find a candidate who matches the "soul" of your company, not just the job description.

Conclusion

From the job site to the boardroom, Tony Hazen’s journey is a testament to the power of grit, empathy, and strategic partnership. Whether you are looking to hire your first C-suite executive or are a leader looking to refine your own career path, Tony’s insights offer a roadmap for success that goes beyond the resume. To hear the full story of how to build a "best in class" management team and the "bloody knuckles" approach to leadership, tune in to the full episode.
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Transcript
Hari Vasudevan (00:03.951) Alright Tony, welcome to a new episode of From Boots to Boardroom. I'm your host Hari Vasudevan, founder and CEO of Cairo AI. Previously, I was the founder and CEO of ThinkPower Solutions. Not every leader sits in a corner office. From Boots to Boardroom shares the journeys of those who power America. From the job site, Tony Hazen (00:05.39) No. Hari Vasudevan (00:33.555) to the boardroom, leading with grit, tenacity, empathy, and vision. Hope you'll find the show to be educational, entertaining, eye-opening, and most importantly, entrepreneurial. Presenting sponsor for the show is Cairo AI, digitized work and maximized profits. For more information, visit cairo.ai. Today's guest is my really good friend, Tony Hazen. Tony is a managing partner in the Houston office of DHR Global. He has more than two decades of experience in executive search and consulting. He specializes in placing senior leaders who drive transformation and operational excellence and hence value creation across industrial sectors and private equity backed companies. I have firsthand knowledge and experience of how awesome Tony is. So Tony Hazen, welcome to the show my friend. Tony Hazen (01:45.122) Thanks for having me, Ari. This is awesome. It's always good to talk to you and I feel likewise. I've been able to witness your excellence firsthand, so it's exciting to talk to you. Hari Vasudevan (01:47.122) Awesome. Hari Vasudevan (01:56.199) Awesome, my friend. So, you know, let's get started on this, right? I really, I have worked with many executive recruiters, right? Genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, I can tell you that you have been by far the best, right? You understand what the CEOs want. You understand what the investors want. You understand what the company culture is. You understand what the candidates want and you really try to get us the best fit. Get your customers the best fit. And you know, when I was at ThinkPower, you were instrumental in what I would call as Kennedy, the best in class management team. You helped put that together and helped us create a value, right? Transformational leaders created value. With all that being said and done, I just really want to know what is it in your personal life, in your professional life, what is it that has made Tony Hazen as to who he is today? How do you connect the dots between the CEOs, the investors, the private equities, the candidates out there? What shapes your leadership style? That's a mouthful, but that's a good question. There you go. Tony Hazen (03:16.545) No, it is it. It's a good question. If I had to boil it down to one thing, I would say, you know, I kind of came up the hard way in the sense that, you know, you know, I, I took a couple of years off after high school, you know, went to college, University of Kentucky and, you know, Great school, loved it, but it's not like going to Harvard or going to Yale or anything like that. And in executive search, would say, traditionally you have a lot of people from backgrounds, very pedigree backgrounds, tend to attract people into executive search. I kind of fell into it about a quarter of the way through my career, and that's a separate story. But I would say, My having come up a little bit less traditionally, a little bit, I always say bloody knuckles, I had to work and work very hard for everything that I got. It wasn't my resume that got me in the door, was, I think people could see something in me, sort of a level of effort and hard work that I was gonna bring to the table. And that's always been what I've leaned on throughout my entire career. So what sort of... makes me or what got me where I am, which I think was kind of what your question was. I mean, I would say that that is the foundational link that really that I always rely on. It's grit. It's knowing that I can dig deep when things are tough, which they get often in the business world, especially, you know, the more successful you get in anything, the higher the pressure against. There's never a point where you kind of like where you're at cruising altitude. So, you know, having that background and knowing where I came from and knowing that I had to push my way through the door is always something that's given me a lot of clarity. And when I work with my clients, I think it makes them, I'm able to build trust with them maybe a little bit quicker than some people are. I think some people come across very arrogant or things like that. Not everybody, that, you know, people that came up, maybe what some people would say is the easy way, you know, Tony Hazen (05:31.987) certainly don't are great people and not arrogant and don't have any of those things. But I think the ability for me to relate to people from a lot of different backgrounds has been something that's helped me be a better partner and communicator with those people. Hari Vasudevan (05:47.611) Yeah, no, it's interesting you say that because, you know, I grew up, as you know, right, I grew up in India and I went to a school in a very industrial... It's a port town, it's called Chennai. And you know, I went to school where a lot of kids' parents went to work in factories, right? Blue collar jobs. And then I also happened to go to a really good school, engineering school. And I always tell my parents that, listen, the fact that I'm able to connect myself with the blue collar people and at the same time connect with the C-suite. is what really has made the companies that I run successful because there is an element of empathy that you bring. I've seen that for a stand. What is it that the candidates, what is the reluctance that the candidates has right now to close the deal? What does it take for the company to close the deal with the candidate? So those are the kind of things that I've seen you first and this background of yours really have set the stage, right? You went to University of Kentucky. not a blue chip college if you will. You've had to fight your way through, work hard to get to where you got to, which helps you connect with a lot of different people if you will. So that's great. So for those who may not know, what is DHR Global? What do you guys do? Tony Hazen (06:59.629) Mm-hmm. Tony Hazen (07:16.683) yeah, so we're an executive search firm. You know, we're now I think around the seventh or sixth largest globally, so very big. And you know, we really we work across all industries. You know, I myself focus a lot on private equity and specifically industrial, industrial services, you oil and gas kind of anything. I always say where people are wearing hard hats doing dangerous things. Those are the businesses that I touch. But yeah, we work across all sectors, healthcare, consumer, you name it, financial services. I forget how many partners we have now, but we have a lot of partners across the globe. And we really, like I said, we focus on retained executive search typically in the C-suite. We also have our jobplex division, which is our emerging leaders division. So if you wanna think kind of mid-level management, know, bumping up against that director level is kind of where they play. Hari Vasudevan (08:18.503) Awesome, awesome. what I'm trying to do here on this show today especially is you're really good at putting management teams for private equity companies. How does private equity company drive value by putting together the best in class management teams that can really outlast the entrepreneur if you will, right? The entrepreneurs are really good. from taking a company from zero to one. That's a unique skill set. One to end as a Nancy. It takes a different skill sets and you need a team of leaders who are collaborative, who can take the company to the next level. That's what you really helped with Think Power. Just putting in the Larry LeBlanc, Dan Hellman, David Chandler's of the world so that they can take the company to the next level. The other piece that I really want to drive is in this show. today especially, is how can entrepreneurs benefit from your services, right? You got private equities. I last week I interviewed my buddy who was the CEO of one of the pieces of Alpine's Trillon Group, right? But entrepreneurs, one of the challenges that we face is we feel like we can do it all, right? Tony Hazen (09:40.621) Mmm. Hari Vasudevan (09:41.831) We don't necessarily think we need a CFO. We don't necessarily think we need a CHRO until FIT hits the shan, if you will. And so you really reduce the value of the company or you can increase the value if you have a better management team around you. Right. So so the long question leads to this. Right. What is the key working relationship between the CEO and the executive recruiter? If you will. That's number one. And How can entrepreneurs benefit from your services? Tony Hazen (10:15.437) That's a great question. On the entrepreneur piece, I've come to have a lot of appreciation for entrepreneurs. I already did, but especially in this business, because I work with so many of them, especially because of a lot of my private equity clients, they'll buy a founder-owned business. And then I get sort of introduced in there and they say, hey, he can help you with the CFO, COO, whatever the case may be to help build out your management team. So, you know, I have a unique perspective in that I've worked with so many different entrepreneurs. The first thing I would say about entrepreneurs is the thing that makes you guys so unique is you really truly have a unique skill set. I the ability to take a company from nothing to 25 million in top line revenue to 50 million in top line revenue to 100 million in top line revenue, wherever it is that you sell that business or hand it off and you bring in maybe private equity ownership, whatever the case may be. That's a very, very unique skill set that very few people have. so, but where I see entrepreneurs struggle sometimes is to your point, letting go. I mean, I've gotten it all when I first meet them. I've never used a recruiter before. What the hell do I need you for? We're doing just fine with Ann Ethel running the books or whatever the case may be. And I understand where that frustration comes from because Hari Vasudevan (11:26.419) Yeah. Tony Hazen (11:44.14) they have built a tremendous thing here, this shiny object that people have paid a lot of money for. And they obviously know a lot about how to get there. when you cross that threshold and you start professionalizing the business, there's very few entrepreneurs that can do that alone that I've seen. mean, certainly there's examples you can find in the world, and usually they end up being quadrillionaires or whatever the case may be, but where they can really just take it to that next level. But they still have to build people out around them. And so how I know... Hari Vasudevan (12:22.867) I mean, honestly, that's a good segue to just chime in. You're absolutely right. There are very few Mark Zuckerbergs. There are very few Bill Gates, prominent examples, right? Elon Musk, you can throw in that category, obviously, right? These are the guys who start, have an idea, start the business, take it to some level, raise money from investors. People often forget, especially in the business that we're in, you and I are in, which is industrials, hard hats, as you put it. Tony Hazen (12:38.893) Mm-hmm. Hari Vasudevan (12:52.637) right? Where when you bring in an investor it is no different than Microsoft going public or Facebook going public or raising venture capital, SpaceX raising venture capital and things like that. And it is a normal evolution which entrepreneurs in this space are very very off. But once you do that it requires really good team to scale the business to get to the next level. You needed a Steve Ballmer, you needed a know I forget the CEO of Facebook, Sheryl Sandberg, Sandberg if you will right, Sandberg and all these guys who really help take the business to the next level. So let me hand over the mic back to you. So you need that management team to really help the entrepreneurs take the company to next level. It's not unusual, everybody needs it and that's where you can help. Tony Hazen (13:45.986) Yeah, absolutely. mean, and I think that, you know, just speaking for me specifically, I mean, that's one of the things that I think, I think once entrepreneurs recognize how much you respect them and frankly, I'm in awe of what they've done and what they've accomplished. My dad was an entrepreneur. You know, it's pretty amazing. And then I'm just there to help, you know, like, and I actually love what I do. I love who I do it I like working with private equity, I also like those businesses, those entrepreneurial run businesses that are now ready to scale because that's what I do well. And that's what I really enjoy. how I relate to those individuals and those entrepreneurs is I think once they kind of realize I'm not there to just tell them what to do and act like I know better because I certainly don't. I know a lot about my specific lane, which is executive search, but I know how much they know and I try to learn a lot about their business. And once I start those conversations, then we can start to peel back the onion and talk about whatever the role is. Let's say hypothetically, it's a, you know, it's a founder business. They're going to need a new CFO. They're going to need a CFO. That's one of the most important parts of a private equity owned business. Hari Vasudevan (15:04.957) which is often the most important hire. Forget about, honestly forget about private equity company, absolutely private equity company, CFO is important. But entrepreneurs often underestimate the need for robust financials and I am example number one, right? Where you know I had financial audited but I also had a slightly subpar team if you will, right? when Larry came along and took the company to the next level, it was night and day difference, right? The company grew by 57 % in the last three years I was there. But at the same time, the working capital doubled 100%, if you will, more efficiency, if you will, right? So we doubled our efficiency on working capital, right? Which is insane. Think about it, growth of 57 % at the same time working capital is just... turning faster, which is really at the end of the day goes to the CFO, right? So going back, CFO is one of the most important hires. Please continue your story. just chained in there on that. Tony Hazen (16:14.241) No, I'm glad you did because I mean, it's more important that people hear that from you because you've lived it and you, as an entrepreneur and you know what an important piece that is, regardless of whether you're private equity owned or not, because you're gonna need, as you scale your business, you're gonna need to do &A. A lot of entrepreneurs can sort of scale the business just living within their means and through cashflow. But at some point when you're going to want to scale that, you're going to have to have relationships with lenders and financial institutions. You're going to want the CFO to take a lot of that off your plate. The CFO can also help tremendously in marketing your company if you are going to sell it at some point. mean, the CEO being the most important, but the CFO is right there with them as far as marketing and selling that company and helping to give people comfort. Hari Vasudevan (17:03.689) 100%. Tony Hazen (17:08.791) you know, with what's underneath the covers. And they wear so many hats and they're so critically important. you know, in a lot of, one of the things that gets thrown around in executive search a lot is, you know, and search partners will sell on this all the time. It always cracks me up because, you know, I mean, they'll sell on their big Rolodex. Like, I'm just gonna flip my Rolodex open and I'm gonna call your CFO up and we'll have, you know, I know everybody. I mean, it is still about the hard work of getting, know, doing your market research and finding those people that fit the culture and fit, you know, the industry, because there's so many, like, subtle variations and have the pelts on the wall that that particular client is looking for in that scenario. Hari Vasudevan (18:01.895) It is so beautifully well put because that's a very important piece that we can actually talk about is the fit, cultural fit. I know you're a sports fan. I'm a sports nut. You're a sports coach. I've coached my kids' And we all know that just because you have superstars in your team doesn't mean it's going to be winning a Super Bowl or an NBA championship or a college football championship, no matter what it is. you need to have the cultural fit, right? So one of the key things that you do really well is understand what makes the company tick. Every company, I believe, has a soul, has a unique culture, and not everybody can fit in that culture, right? And what is the process that you go about understanding what makes a unique company unique, and you have two different candidates. In my case, I can give you an example, going back to the CFO search, I had two really good candidates to ultimately to pick from. One was who we ended up with, Larry LeBlanc. The other one was a Harvard grad, right? Larry went to UT Arlington. The other was a Harvard grad. So, shiny object going back to your intro was, hey, you got an Ivy League grad. And then you got a, you know, no name school, honestly, right? But we ended up with Larry after so many discussions that you and I had. What is it that you understand about culture and who fits the culture better? How do you work with the CEO and investors to understand that? Tony Hazen (19:49.506) Well, you've got to meet the key stakeholder within the company itself. So in your case, in that situation, it was the CEO and you were very good about giving me your time. I mean, I'm going to say a lot of positive things about what you did, but it's meant sincerely because one of the reasons we had such a successful build out of your management team was because of how involved in the process you were. giving your time to the executive search partner is critical. They need to learn you. They need to know who you are. By our nature, executive search partners, I don't care what firm you're with, my competitors, whatever the case may be, we tend to be very intuitive about people's personalities, what's going to be a good cultural fit. That's one of the things that attract our personality types to this business. spending time with the CEO, getting to know them a little bit, not like you'd have to go out and have beers together or something, but you do have to spend a little bit of time on the phone and be open with the executive search partner about how you think, how you built the business, you know, and they're gonna pick up on things about you. Be open about your culture, but that's a hard thing to articulate, but. But I have a tendency, I'll speak for myself, I have a tendency, I can pick up on little things about the way you talk about things, what you talk about, how you say things, and I can get a sense for the culture that's gonna permeate within that business. And also you telling me overtly, this is what our culture is, this is what I like, this is what I will not tolerate, this is what we need so that we're all rowing in the same direction. Once you get a sense from that, then it's just matching up those qualitative things. with the quantitative and you've got to merge those together. in Larry's case, remember, know, in one of my, one of the partners that reported to me, he spearheaded a lot of that search, but you know, I was still actively involved. And I remember when I met Larry, he was just, I could just tell there was going to be a really strong cultural fit there. It's a gut instinct kind of thing. Tony Hazen (22:07.809) but you only get that gut instinct by spending the time. And I've been in situations and I've gotten to the point in my career now where I won't even, I won't do searches if the key stakeholder is not gonna be actively involved and give me their time because I can't gauge culture, I can't make sure I'm getting the right fit if I don't know that person on some level. Hari Vasudevan (22:27.71) Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the key word here, as you put it, is be engaged. Right. Because this is ultimately about your company, whether you're a CEO of a private equity run company or you're an entrepreneur scaling your business. An executive search partner is exactly that. It's a partner. Right. So you got to give that person time of the day. that is meaningful and that you're engaged in the process, provide the feedback back and forth. It's like, hey, a candidate X is good because of X, Y, and Z reasons. Candidate Y is not a good fit because X, and Z reasons. So your next set of candidates that you give for the same search is going to get better every single time. That's how we iterated in all our searches. Is that a fair way to put it at the end of the day? Tony Hazen (23:28.813) 100%. And you're like the best CEO or key stakeholder and recruiter executive search partner, however you want to put it, relationships are built on trust and candor. That may sound very canned, but if you really peel that back, those are the two most important things. You have to have trust. We have to be able to look at each other and say, this person knows what they're doing. I need to trust this individual. I need to work with them. and we're going to get to the best answer that way. And a great leader doesn't, I mean, it doesn't matter what it is, doesn't want someone or a partner that is just going to take orders and run a process. They want somebody who's going to tell them when they're making a mistake or when they think they're making a mistake and say, there's got to be the right place to do that. Hari Vasudevan (24:00.115) Yeah, steam work. Tony Hazen (24:25.003) When you, you know, when I remember when we were running one of your searches, know, kind of our first batch of candidates just wasn't on the mark. And, you know, so you and I had a conversation and it wasn't accusatory. It wasn't anything like that. You came into it, hey, here's, think this is what I really want. And now that I'm seeing this, this is not what I want, but this is what I'm looking for. Do you think those, and you were very open about it. And then the next slate of candidates we had, you wanted to interview like four out of the five of them that we had. So that kind of back and forth, you've got to have that kind of honesty with each other. You can't be afraid to tell me, hey, this batch wasn't on the mark. And I can't be afraid to tell you when I say, look, I've seen CEOs make this mistake time and time again. Here's what I think may be a blind spot for you. If I'm not doing that, then I'm just an order taker and that doesn't work at this level of search. Hari Vasudevan (25:23.145) 100 percent. mean, there are key aspects that I want to really drive home the point here. Number one, trust and teamwork. It's no different than a quarterback, you know, trusting his wide receiver or trusting his offensive line. Right. So that they can focus on the play at hand. That's number one. Right. That's super important. And number two is the candid feedback that both parties give each other. That is so important. I can I can't really tell you. I, listen, I built a business, but I had not built a management team. So I had to rely a lot on you to learn that process. I definitely learned that process from you, right? It's like, just because somebody is just a client account manager in a previous firm doesn't mean that he or she cannot be a chief commercial or chief revenue officer. Just because somebody is a... just a HR manager doesn't mean he or she cannot become a CHRO, right? These are all key things that you know you got to trust your partners and take a little bit of calculated risk as well, right? Because you know in all our successful hires we took a little bit of a calculated risk. That doesn't mean, let's also be real, that doesn't mean all searches are going to be successful. It's also a function of you also had a couple of failures, which is not a big deal. It's, know, anything you're gonna have a couple of failures, you know, the Chiefs lose a few games here and there, but they by far win a lot of Super Bowls. Same thing with the Patriots in its heyday, right? So the reality is, what are the lessons learned from some of the fail searches, if you will, and how can you tweak it going forward? Is that a reasonable approach on that, Tony? Tony Hazen (27:10.989) Yeah, absolutely. 100%. And you were very open, which is why you learned quickly and why you figured it out. And to your point, not every search will, not every hire will end up being perfect. mean, you're going to have somewhere, let's say I'm working on a search for you and you and I are both like, this is the perfect person, absolutely. we're patting each other on the back and then it ends up not working out. mean, and all of the signs were there that it was right. Sometimes you go back and autopsy it you're like, oh, I see what I missed. Or there was this little voice in the back of my head that we both kind of turned away because everything else was so good and we probably should have listened to it a little more. And sometimes you may just throw your hands up and say, I don't know why this one didn't go right. It is what it is, but you can always. Most of the time when you autopsy it, can find where it went wrong. There are a lot of common mistakes though. If you'd like me to get into that, I could. Hari Vasudevan (28:14.665) I mean, I really mean that is something I really want you to get into what are some of the common mistakes people make CEOs make private equity company makes because you know private equity companies also has a lot of Young partners and associates who want to learn from your wealth of knowledge, right? So please go for it. Tony Hazen (28:33.995) Yeah, no, I think one of the biggest, if I could just say, first of all, there's some people, especially in private equity, I don't think they recognize one of the most important things about what they do. And this will sound like I'm talking my own book here, but the truth of it is one of the most important things they do is upgrading the talent in these companies they buy or doing those kinds of things. I that's one of the most important things they will do. after they close the sale. And it is critically important. It's one of the best ways they can move the needle because they can't do everything. They can't be involved in the business on a day-to-day basis, nor would you ever want them to be. They've got to have the right leaders in place that are going to drive the business forward. So it's, first of all, undervaluing the importance of that kind of stuff. That's a common mistake. The next one I would say is, you know, The market is ruthless. It is absolutely ruthless. And you're in competition with every other firm or company that's trying to get this same person. And... Hari Vasudevan (29:44.531) Good old American capitalism, my friend. That's what it is. Tony Hazen (29:46.99) It is a ruthless market. what I've seen, I can tell you, have the biggest mistake is not filling the search or not going through the process too quickly. I've never had the issue where it's like, well, we should have measured twice before we cut. It's usually the fact that the process gets prolonged unnecessarily. And many times it's when you've got that perfect candidate. So, you know, let's continue to pump Larry's tires. Let's say, you you find Larry and he's just, your gut's telling you it's the right one, on paper he's the right one. And then you come back to me you're like, yeah, but we've only been doing this for about three weeks. So let's see what else is out there. Let's go ahead and get me another batch of candidates. I've seen probably more times than I would like to admit where the client will do that. And then some other PE firm or some other company will come in and value that person, Larry, say, no, you're exactly who we want. What can we pay you? What can we do to get you here tomorrow? I know you're in a process with somebody else. We would, make them feel good about themselves. Human beings want to feel wanted. And if, Hari Vasudevan (30:58.557) Show some love, right? Tony Hazen (31:07.455) If you're doing that for them and then they see this other company is not sure enough to pull the trigger, they want to see other candidates and things like that, then they may end up going with the company that is decisive and comes at them. So be decisive. And also a sidecar to that is they think that executive recruiters, that we can spin a yarn and just keep candidates on hold forever. Candidates are not stupid. If they've had their interview and they're still hanging around three weeks after the interview and they're kind of getting from me, hey, you know, their schedule's busy, they're traveling, we're getting your next thing set up, next steps are coming soon, they read through it and they know that, okay, they're looking at other candidates, they're not sold on me, then they get that phone call and then that person ends up accepting the other opportunity and then... the client will be like, my God, we lost this perfect candidate. How did that happen? What did we do? It's because you have to be decisive. You have to trust your own gut. And sometimes the best candidate comes in the first one or two times. Or first one or two candidates that you see. I would say the last thing, and this is gonna sound pretty simple, but you can't get a Ferrari for the price of a Chevy. Hari Vasudevan (32:32.307) Yeah. Tony Hazen (32:32.417) You have to, if you want, if you tell me you need a CFO who's had multiple successful exits, who, you know, or has public company experience or has taken a company public, it must have this, they must have successfully done this X, Y, and Z, that person's going to come at a premium. And a lot of people want that superstar A plus person, but they don't want to pay plus money for it. The market is ruthless there too. There will be somebody that's gonna pay them what they're worth and that individual is gonna win the day and they're gonna get the better leader in most cases. Hari Vasudevan (33:09.449) Yeah, no, I was taking notes as we speak because I really wanted to summarize this. Essentially, what you're saying is trust your gut and close the deal. That's really number one, right? When you have the right candidate, right? And number two is pay people what they're worth, right? Because ultimately, you do these two things well, These leaders that you're putting together, especially the executive search for private equity or for an entrepreneur that you're putting together, these leaders are going to increase the value of the company by millions of dollars, sometimes tens of millions of dollars, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars in value creation. So if you're going to hold back 10,000 bucks and trying to be cheeky about it, it's not smart, right? It's like, it's like negotiating a buck with a street vendor, right? It's not going to work. And really, honestly, the most important piece of the puzzle, which you said, was candidates are smart and they're going to smell something is wrong or something is not right or, know, they're not the top lead horse, if you will. You want them on your team. You want smart people on your team, right? If you want somebody who's dumb or not so smart on your team, yeah they may stick around in the market and the market is still going to be ruthless because they're not in demand. But the candidates who are smart, who can see through the situation, who are real leaders, they're going to be in demand. They're going to get paid what the market offers and they're going to get off board quickly. It's just like a draft board, right? Number one pick goes away. Yeah, most of the time the top first-rounders are going to be successful. Sure, there are certain times they're gonna be unsuccessful, but that doesn't mean you hold back. You still take a shot and you hire Sean McVay, young guy, but you know what? You want a Super Bowl, right? That's the way life is at the end of the day. You gotta trust your gut and go with it. Is that a fair way to put it? Tony Hazen (35:23.637) Absolutely. And you can get step up candidates that maybe don't have the pelt on the wall yet. But if you, if we're open and honest with each other, if you come to me and say, Hey, I'm kind of looking for, you know, a step up candidate, like, like they don't have to have necessarily been a sitting CFO before. want somebody who's sharp, who's ready. You know, that's a little bit of additional intuition it takes. You I want to make it clear. We still run a process, you know, like, I mean, we run a very diligent. process oriented search. But there is a lot of intuition and things like that that go into it that are key. And you have to be decisive. And I think that it's part of the process to, know, cause yeah, it's easy for me to say, right? Cause I'm spending other people's money. I'm spending either the private equity firms money or your money to go get this new CFO. Like, know, Hey, it's monopoly money to me, of course, like pay them, pay them whatever they need to do. but that's not where I'm coming from. That's where sometimes they think we're coming from, but it's not. It's really the fact that these individuals know what they're worth. And to use your sports analogy, maybe here's a better way to put a bow on it. Let's assume there wasn't a draft in the NFL. Let's assume that you actually had to sell a great quarterback on coming to your team, right? So if you've got one team that's kind of playing the quarterback like, you know, we're talking to two or three other quarterbacks, you know, and then he's got one coach that comes to him and says, you're my guy, you're who I want, I want you here tomorrow, let me tell you our plans for you, let me open up the playbook and show you what we're gonna do, who do you think that quarterback's gonna pick? And. Hari Vasudevan (37:05.673) Hey, you know what? Absolutely. If I'm the quarterback, I'm going to go to the coach who's selling me the vision. This is really college football at the end of the day. Today's college football, right? With NIL, know, somebody comes in, know, Sark from UT comes in and says, you know, your kid who's a quarterback, right, comes to your kid and say, hey, this is what you're going to do. You're going to play in year two. Year one, you're going to be behind this person. This is a playbook. I'm going to, you know, you know, I don't know what your son does, but, know, if he's a scrambling quarterback, this is the playbooks that I'm going to use. most likely your kid is probably going to go to UT because you know, UT's got the money, probably get the NIL deals and things like that. On the other hand, some of the quarterbacks say, you know what, I'm Clemson, they've not embraced NIL, I'm Clemson, but come to me, I'm like, yeah, you know what, I'm not really gonna go, right? I'm gonna go to UT because I know where I'm gonna go. Is that a fair way to put it? Tony Hazen (37:57.55) Yeah, well, I I think all things being equal to, I mean, look, to put a, cause it's not just about the money. I the best executives don't move just for money. They'll move what matters to them is gonna be mission, sponsor's reputation and the clarity of the role. What's the plan? Do I see that I can be successful in this role? Do I think I can make an impact and grow the business and achieve the results that are being laid out for me? Those three things are super important, but they're not a coupon. You're not going to then get this person that can get X in the market just because they really like you and they love your vision and all that stuff. That's the thing that's the cost of entry to get them interested and to get them looking at this, but they're not going to take a haircut on pay for that kind of thing. But you've got three levers you can move. Those are the types of people the best executives are the ones that are gonna be looking at that equity stake. And they're gonna be asking for a bigger equity stake and they're gonna say, I can forego being the most paid CFO if I can get that equity stake where I want it to be so I can participate in that upside. Hari Vasudevan (39:11.901) Yeah, that's a great segue into the next question, right? But I definitely want to put a bow to this answer here. So they're going to look at mission, sponsors, reputation. And what is the third thing you said, Tony? Tony Hazen (39:27.021) So, it was a sponsor tradition and the clarity of the role. Basically the game strategy. Hari Vasudevan (39:32.559) I mean, essentially working partnership with the CEO and other executives and things like that, right? Mission, sponsor's reputation, clarity of the role. you know, honestly, sponsor's reputation becomes key. You know, if the sponsor has a reputation of chopping and changing, you have a problem, right? Because a good CFO doesn't want or a good CHRO doesn't want to work somewhere where they're going to be on the market again in a year or six months, right? So that's super important if you're a private equity firm to... treat your people with respect and fairness at the end of the day, right? So let's talk about the various tools to reward executives, right? You touched on a couple of super important pieces, cash comp, as well as management incentive units, right? How do executives look at this? How do they balance out the risk of today's cash versus tomorrow's upside? What can you tell our listeners about the different pieces of the puzzle there? Tony Hazen (40:36.717) Great question. It's a very layered question because it may sound simple, but it depends on the role. CFOs are, tend to be a little bit more risk averse by and large. You will find some that riverboat gamblers, but by and large they tend to be more risk averse. So they are going to be driven more by, they'll look at equity sometimes as yeah, that's in the best case scenario, this is what it'll be worth, but it could be worth nothing depending on the situation. So. They'll be less, they still like the equity piece and they're going to want that equity piece. And by some of them, it drives them more than anybody else. But you have the role itself, like CEOs, for example, when I do CEO searches, many of those are some of the biggest riverboat gamblers I've ever seen, very successful ones, but they, but they are like, yeah, give me all equity. Give me, I will, take less pay, give me more equity. I'm going to knock the cover off this ball and I'm going to, I'm going to exit with 10 million plus. That's the way they think. So you have to kind of know your audience. You have to kind of know the person you're talking to. And I advise my clients on that. I may say, look, Hari, you know, he's not going to be driven by short-term cash. That's not what's going to move the needle for him. needs to, you know, assuming that he buys into your vision, he buys into what you're doing from a compensation perspective, he's probably going to want most of it in equity, you know? And that just comes from knowing the candidate during the process. But as you know, there's base, there's bonus and equity. Base keeps people whole. They want to be able to pay their bills and not have to downgrade their lifestyle. But the base keeps them whole. The bonus will drive short-term performance, but equity is what creates that true alignment. So giving people ownership of their business, giving people ownership of the business, giving them that equity, giving them a meaningful equity stake. That's what's going to keep them there late at night when you guys are grinding through something. That's what's going to keep them on mission. That's what's going to keep them rowing in the same direction because of that, that incentive. I cannot stress enough. What a great part of the selection process it is when somebody is really bought in on the equity side of it and when they're asking for more equity and they're not asking for just that extra 20. Cause this goes, this is a two way street. Tony Hazen (43:00.395) You need to pay them what they're worth, but also you don't want somebody that's literally, that's all they care about for the cash comp. Because that's not the private equity game. That's not Hari Vasudevan (43:08.073) We had that experience where we couldn't bring the candidate home. You actually talked about it where it's like we're dating somebody and then you give them something but they still don't want to get married. You give them more. They don't want get married. There's one candidate like that. But it happens. It happens. Tony Hazen (43:26.411) Right. Yeah, it's a give and take and both people need to be honest brokers in that process. So if you've got a candidate that all they are is money hungry, all they want is their base and bonus and they're not really bought in on the equity piece, that tells you a lot. Hari Vasudevan (43:44.84) That's a red flag, truly. It's a red flag for CEOs, private equity sponsors. You want somebody, as you put it, you want somebody in the Foxhole fighting the battle, grinding out in the nights when things are not always rosy. And for that, the equity compensation really, really helps align incentives, right? But cash, today's cash is important. So is bonus because, you can't always go, I mean, I've been in the situation before where you go and say rah rah to the company and to the leadership team. So the company is doing great. But you know what? Sorry, we're not going to give you a bonus because of X, Y and Z. It doesn't work. These guys are smart. So cash, pay fair bonuses, good equity, a good CFO will take less equity upfront. But once he figures out or she figured out the company is worth a lot. He or she is going to demand more equity. Tony Hazen (44:46.933) Yeah, for sure. Once they get a look at the books and they'll know which way the wind's blowing pretty cleanly. Hari Vasudevan (44:52.777) I've had that experience. I've had that experience when somebody looks at this episode, I'm sure this guy will appreciate it. Tony Hazen (45:02.603) Yeah, no kidding. But yeah, one last thing on that point though is the, and again, this kind of lumps in with when you see deal makers, especially involved in the compensation discussions. So in other words, the private equity, if the deal guys are involved in that kind of thing, they look at everything like it's a. it's a deal negotiation. And I think when you look at compensation that way, it's a very bad place to start. Because when you're doing a deal, when you're buying a company or anything like that, yeah, it's a negotiation. Both people are trying to get the most they can, giving up the least, and everybody understands that. And usually you meet in the middle. Compensation is so much more emotional than that. You can't dumb it down to that. You can't just... try to press down base and press down bonus and press down equity as much as you can so that you keep as much on your side and still get the best candidates. Those are the candidates you're gonna lose to the other firm that recognizes exactly what you said, Hari. It's exactly what you said. You're arguing about, let's even say it's a difference in 250K or half a million in equity. You're arguing about that when at the end of the day, they're gonna create so much value. They could be the difference between a 6X multiple and a 10X multiple. And you're gonna make all that money back plus so much extra cheese on top of it. You'll laugh at yourself forever even thinking about not making the decision to bring them on. And that's where I think that compensation discussions are very different than deal discussions. Hari Vasudevan (46:30.857) It's mind boggling. Hari Vasudevan (46:48.647) Yeah, no, I'm glad you mentioned that because, you know, you are making a deal, but this is a different kind of a deal. Right. When you're when you're dealing with the investment banker and the customers, they represent typically entrepreneurs. It's like you have somebody in the middle, the the bankers who can kind of articulate everything to the entrepreneur and, you know, take the emotive piece out of it. In this case. you know, I'm hiring these executives and yeah, you're there, but at a certain point, really at a certain point, Tony, maybe this is a good transition into this. At a certain point, the candidate is looking for the CEO to close the freaking deal, right? The recruiter gives a bunch of options, right? It's like here's a full menu, right? And then you go through the entire process, right? the team, you know, interviews the person, sponsor, private equity sponsor, investors, they interview the person, the CEO interviews the person. At the end of the day, it comes down to the CEO to close the deal, right? And, you know, you don't want to be holding, you know, multiple arrows in your quiver. when you're trying to the Sure, hang on to maybe one or two, right? But listen, at the end of the day, the candidate has to feel like you're genuine, you trust and believe what you're selling, right? And you truly mean that this person needs to be part of the team and they will add value to the company. So it falls on the CEO to close the deal. The emotional piece that many many people miss, many CEOs miss, many entrepreneurs miss. It is not just IQ that makes a company successful, it's the EQ. Are you putting enough emotional quotient into the company, emotional energy into the company to close these deals? And so it's a deal, but not so deal. It's an emotional piece. If a candidate wants 250,000 bucks, go one step further, pay him 260 or her 260. Tony Hazen (48:53.805) Thank you. Hari Vasudevan (49:13.243) and say, know what, feel good about it, my friend. Come on board. You're gonna be valued in the team. That's the best way to close the deal. Would you not agree with me on that, Tony? Tony Hazen (49:21.933) 100%. And again, like one of the reasons you and I got along so well and worked so well together and became friends is because, you you got that piece without even having to be told. mean, like, because a lot of people think that when they hire a big firm like a DHR or, you know, previously I was with another big, big firm. And they think when they hire that firm that we're going to do it, we'll close everything. We're going to bring you the candidate. We're going to make them take this certain compensation. We're going to get everything negotiated. And we can influence somebody to take. No. The leader they're going to be reporting to or leaders they're going to be reporting to are the most important people in closing that deal. Because that's the people they're going to be working with. They're not going be working with me. They're going to be working with you. And when you came in in those processes, once I had kind of handed the candidate off, I'm like, hey, we're ready to make music here. You want them. The candidate wants to join. Now we got to get down to compensation. Here's where we talked about where they kind of want to be. you know, and they always sometimes, you know, there's a lot of nibbling that happens towards that last little, little part. But as long as it's in good faith and you come to the table, most importantly, how are you came to the table with. They could tell you genuinely wanted them and they could tell you were really putting the best number you could on the table. Yeah, to your point, you may know that you could get to 20 and you may offer them 18 and they're very happy with 18 and that's where the deal ends. Great. That's a very good faith negotiation. When it gets bad is when you know you probably could get to 20, but you start at five. Like that's wasting somebody's time and it's treating them like they're stupid. Hari Vasudevan (51:09.341) Yes. Tony Hazen (51:09.619) And you first of all, you shouldn't be hiring somebody who's stupid. And number two, they should have enough instinct to say, hey, he's starting way low. mean, this is insulting. And you never did that. You made them feel like you wanted them. They could feel that. And you also, you gave them great deals. And if they got in, and here's another piece. Once they got in and you know you like them, they know they like you. Hari Vasudevan (51:12.499) Yes. Tony Hazen (51:39.145) You guys are making a big impact on the business. And then the market shifts like it did over the last five years where inflation went through the roof, compensations went through the roof. You made adjustments, you made game time adjustments. You have to. Hari Vasudevan (51:45.533) Big time. Hari Vasudevan (51:52.01) You can't rely on 2018 data or 2020 data for 2025. It just doesn't work, right? Because certain markets just shift. mean, I'll take ThinkPower as a classic example, right? Because of artificial intelligence, which really came off age in 2022, if you will, right? The demand for power just drastically went up. Tony Hazen (52:03.212) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (52:21.961) What does it mean for a company like ThinkPower and other companies in that business? The value of those companies drastically went up. When somebody was instead of paying 15 times EBITDA, they're probably paying 18, 19 times EBITDA to buy ThinkPower. So listen, why would you not pay a little bit more for a top-notch management team when at best it's a marginal erosion on value for you, right, as a company? So You you got to look at it from that lens. You're still giving up just a tiny little bit to get top-notch talent. The end of the day when the market shifts, keeping an eye on the market and taking care of your own people is super important. The last thing you want to do, and this is a good topic to actually shift to, is the recruiter gives you a slate of candidates. You go through the hard work. You pour your emotional energy. hire that candidate, put them in a position to be successful and they are successful, right? When they are successful, in today's day and age, LinkedIn, all other social media, everybody knows you have a successful team, right? They're going to try to, you know, poach your top-tier talent, which happens all the time, right? You know this as a recruiter, it happens all the time. Hold on, hang on to your team that you've built so hard, Pay them well, treat them well, take care of them well, that way the hard work that you put to build value doesn't collapse overnight, right? Is that a fair way to put it, Tony Hazen (54:05.567) It's, it's first of all, it is, it is dead on you're hitting the bullseye. And I mean, it's, seems so obvious and intuitive, but so I've seen a lot of people make this mistake. So here's the thing for your listeners and you know, for you keep doing what you do because it works very well because you do that very well. And for those out there that don't do this, you need to start thinking about it because to your point. the second I place, whatever the exact, I I place SVPs too, whatever the case may be, presidents, C-level, when the second that person starts, they're getting phone calls from, not me, because I placed them, but they're getting, everybody else in my, I mean, they're like, we need somebody with private equity experience that's in this business that has had good positive exit. So all the same reasons you hired them, they're getting calls for those same reasons. And, Hari Vasudevan (54:57.021) Good old American capitalism, my friend. Tony Hazen (54:59.341) That's right. Everybody's trying to poach your best players. That's that's and frankly, if your people aren't getting good calls that aren't getting calls, that means they're probably that's that's an issue. So they they will be getting a lot of calls and nobody's going to jump. Like if I was working for you, Hari, and somebody called me and they said, you know, hey, you know, we got this great opportunity for you. You know, you may make 20K more a year or something like this. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (55:09.481) It's a problem. Tony Hazen (55:28.641) I mean, that would be nice, but I'm not gonna jump from what I know is you, and I love our working relationship, and we're great, we're building something great. Yeah, but when the delta gets to be too big, no matter how much somebody likes you, they're gonna do what's best for them financially, what's best for their family financially, and everybody financially. you don't have to be at the top of the market, but you always have to be talking to them. You always have to make sure they feel... loved in whatever way that is, across the board, with you having a good relationship, giving them the right compensation levels, plussing them up when the market moves, and that inoculates you from losing them. Hari Vasudevan (56:11.123) Yeah, no, interesting. I'm going to give a little bit of secret away as to how I managed it. Honestly, right? Number one, obviously kept an eye on the market and you being a great friend and a great partner. You helped me. I always called you and said, hey, has the market moved since we hired somebody and you kind of gave me some reasonable data metrics so that I can I can tweak number one. Number two, which I always did was, you know, I always had an open relationship with my executives, meaning I always ask them, are you happy? Is there anything that's happening in the company that you're unhappy about? And the most important thing, which this is the question that I read somewhere on Wall Street Journal, which is the most important question and which was really powerful for me. When was the last time you thought about quitting the company and why? And I almost always got a very honest response and I would venture to say always actually, right? Because people were very open with me when I asked that question. They said that, I thought about leaving the company at this time because I made this mistake and I thought that was fatal and I thought you were going to fire me, but you gave me a chance. I really appreciate that. And others were like, man, this was really frustrating for me working with these guys. I'm thinking about taking off or somewhere else, right? This is very open conversation. When was the last time you thought about quitting and what is the reason? And if you have a good relationship with your executives and your employees in general, they'll be open to giving you that insight, if you will. And you have to listen to them, right? Tweak, make changes. So that is great question. So any advice for entrepreneurs as you know, private equity for the most part they understand how to build leadership teams because that's how they drive value to their companies. Entrepreneurs, I know you and I have talked privately, right? We've talked about it in this show as well where these guys, me included, right? We feel like we know it all. We don't want to have somebody else. You come in and they say, you know, listen, I'm only talking to you because the private equity asked me to talk to you, right? You're not really, you know, Hari Vasudevan (58:37.949) How do you try to work with entrepreneurs in the sense, what advice do you have for entrepreneurs in a nutshell? Maybe just keep an open mind and work with me. Tony Hazen (58:50.325) Yeah, well, I mean, that would be it, but that sounds very self-serving. But the truth of it is, and it's, you have to build trust. Like I don't front load these conversations, but if I was talking to every entrepreneur, which I think is what you're asking me, like you and I are talking here. And I wanted to tell them, Hey, look, I know that I'm not an entrepreneur. I know I haven't done what you've done, but I've met and know many of you entrepreneurs that have been very successful. And I'll tell them, here's your blind spots by and large. And you may fit some of these, all of them, maybe very few of them. But by and large, these are the blind spots that entrepreneurs have. We already talked about it a little bit. It's that they can get a little bit, they're used to winning, right? They built this company with just grit and hard work. They've worked weekends. They've... Hari Vasudevan (59:30.717) Yeah. Tony Hazen (59:44.76) done 5,000 different jobs, they've worn 20 hats, and it's been working for them, obviously, because they built it from nothing to, let's say, 50 million in top line revenue. They got private equity suitors that just were all knocking on their door. They finally picked one and sold to them. Or let's just say they decide they wanna keep the company. They haven't sold it to private equity, but they're hitting that 50 million, 100 million in top line revenue threshold. The biggest mistake I see him make is think that the playbook that worked to get them there is going to be the same playbook that takes them to the next level. And the assumption that all of us corporate stiffs that are out here, we don't have really any value to add. We don't know what we're doing. We do. And most importantly, there's many of us that respect greatly what you do. We also know we couldn't do what you do. But that really comes down to understanding that you need Hari Vasudevan (01:00:29.417) you Tony Hazen (01:00:44.063) a dedicated professional leadership team as you start to scale your company. If you can understand that key piece, and again, this is just what I have visibility into. I'm sure bankers would answer this question differently. in different consultative professions would answer it differently, but you have to be open to realize that, yeah, know, Ann Ethel did a great job doing the books for all these years, you know, and, but- Hari Vasudevan (01:00:48.615) You need a hat. Tony Hazen (01:01:14.445) Now it's time to scale up and we got to take it to that next level. And we need a professional. And a lot of times what entrepreneurs will say to me, well, I've never paid a CFO more than X amount. Let's pick some low ball number. And you're like, well, yeah, because that was a glorified bookkeeper is all it was. Hari Vasudevan (01:01:34.013) Yeah, mean, honestly, that is really not out of common. It's like, hey, I've been 60,000 bucks, brother. That's a good book. Tony Hazen (01:01:41.422) Yeah, why would I pay 200, 300,000 in base for a CFO when I've always had this person doing it for, let's use your number, 60K? It's like, well, because they were a glorified bookkeeper. You gave them a title, and title is the cheapest form of compensation there is, that's what I always say. But you gave them this title, but that's not really the role they were working in. So I think the biggest thing for entrepreneurs is realizing when they're gonna hit a wall, where they're gonna have to do some things differently and they're gonna have to get outside their comfort zone and they're gonna have to choose some people to take some really good advice from and that's gonna enable them to go to the next level. Hari Vasudevan (01:02:21.865) 100 % beautiful advice, honestly, right? So let's shift a little bit into AI, right? We talked a little bit about it, how AI shifted some markets, right? How do you see that impacting the recruiting industry? And how do you see AI just impacting the US economy? And generally, what do you see out there in the market, in this market, market and things like that? Tony Hazen (01:02:48.173) Well, AI, the biggest impact I've seen on it is what a lot of people are seeing, which is it's changing the mechanics of recruitment. It's changing the entry level positions in recruiting. So, I can get smart on a company. Let's say you came to me and I didn't know you from a hole in the earth. And you're like, hey, I'm the CEO of Cairo or ThinkPower back in the day. And I'd like to meet with you on Tuesday to do a search. I can go into AI, find out everything I need to know about your company, at least to sound somewhat smart. That used to be a dedicated job in executive search, like where you would have these researchers that would go out and like, you know, unfortunately I was one of them at one point, they'd be working the weekend and scouring all these things so that the partner knew what they were talking about when they went into these meetings. Now it can be done like that and it can be done without a person. The biggest impact AI is having on recruiting is recruiting is, I'm gonna be a little bit of a nerd here. Recruiting is like, it's an apprenticeship business. Executive search is an apprenticeship business, I should say. Lower level staffing, not so much, but executive recruiting is an apprenticeship business. It's like, you got a Jedi master teaching a Jedi padawan, right? So if you... If you don't have those those new people coming into the firm that you're teaching and growing and teaching them how the business works and putting them under your wing. My biggest concern for this business is while right now it makes us more efficient, because we can use it for resume analysis, we can use it for you know for capturing notes. We can use it for all kinds of things that would typically be done by maybe two or three other people. The difference is. There's nobody coming in the funnel to be those next level of partners. I think a lot of businesses have had that issue. Hari Vasudevan (01:04:44.509) to the next Tony Hazen. Really, to be the next Tony Hazen, right, at the end of the day. Where are those guys coming from? Tony Hazen (01:04:49.794) Right. Tony Hazen (01:04:53.165) Right, and that's the thing. you know, it's impacted the business in a big way because so much of what we do is, we have to do, it's research driven. Again, this goes back to my, every partner will tell you they have this Rolodex and they're gonna call Jim Bob and Joe and get your CFO in a couple of days. you know, Tony Hazen doesn't have access to those people, but I do. You know, that kind of thing. The truth of it is, there's a lot of research that goes into finding the candidates that fit the mold. It helps tremendously with that. It helps with a lot of the blocking and tackling, which frees us up to spend more time on the phone talking to candidates. So it makes us much more efficient. The downside or the impact it's going to have is how do you get new people starting in a profession that are fresh out of college? Like I think I heard a stat the other day that 20 is like this is the highest unemployment rate the country's seen for new college graduates. Hari Vasudevan (01:05:55.604) Yeah. And, know, that is actually concerning, which puts into question another big, you know, debatable point is like, hey, do you need college degree or not? If you go to college and come back and if you don't find a job, what's the point? I mean, that's a completely different discussion, right? But that is a very, very concerning point at the end of the day. That's a fair point. So, you know, at the end of the day, if you were to summarize an executive recruiter, You help entrepreneurs and private equity firms put together great leadership teams, increase the value of the company, and hence create a pathway for eventual exit. Is that a reasonable way to put it, Tony, on that? Yes. Tony Hazen (01:06:39.969) Yes, for me, like there's many partners in executive search that would, know, Coca-Cola needed a new CFO or needed somebody new in the business. You know, these are big, obviously Fortune 50 companies that we do executive search for. I myself specialize in private equity in the industrial spaces. And so for me, what I do is I help business owners founders, CEOs, and boards, and also private equity owners build management teams for their business to help expand those management teams. Probably 90 % of what I do now is for private equity, if not more. And it's because they are the gateway to the middle market. And that's where I love to work is the middle market. A lot of people may take that as, well, Tony just wants to work with the highfalutin PE people. That's actually not it. I actually enjoy working with the middle market and they right now own an enormous portion of the middle market. So it's a conduit to the middle market, to these entrepreneurially founded businesses that are ready to take that next step. yeah, we all work to get paid. I mean, that's what we do, but I love what I do. I I love it so much. mean, If I'd won that big lottery that just happened, that Powerball lottery, I'd probably still be sitting here doing this. That's how much I enjoy doing it. It'd be a lot less stressed, but I would definitely enjoy doing it. And so that's what we do in Executive Search is we're experts at learning you, learning the private equity firm, learning your culture. Hari Vasudevan (01:08:12.424) Yeah. Tony Hazen (01:08:26.013) We know enough about our industries to be dangerous. I always say do I know as much about industrial or industrial services as the people that do those businesses? Of course not, but I know the lingo. I know I know the roles and I know the companies I know what they do and that just makes it easier to go out and build those management teams and when there's nothing more rewarding for me. I still remember this was early in my career. I was at Corn Fairy. We actually did a a search for. a publicly traded company and was a CFO search. And, and, and then we ended up doing the CEO search, both placements. When the news hit the wires, their stock shot up. And that was a really big rush and it really made me realize the impact of what I do. and so, yeah, I mean, just in a nutshell, yes, that's what I do, but, but the, the, the, the passion that I have for the business is because this is, always say, Hari Vasudevan (01:09:08.819) Wow. Tony Hazen (01:09:25.133) I came to this business about a quarter of the way through my career and I knew from the second day is what I was born to do professionally. Hari Vasudevan (01:09:35.018) Wow, wow, wow. That is a powerful statement there. Listen, I can tell you this. In terms of value creation, when I was at ThinkPower, you clearly helped build the value of ThinkPower to enormous extent. Number one, the management team you helped me put together, it is what driving the company today and... clearly you had, I've told this to you so many times privately, is like, you are the reason why the ThinkPower is where it is right now, honestly, right? The management team there is, and I'm sure they're gonna be super successful in taking the company to the next level. So you've played an enormous role in taking ThinkPower to the next level, and hopefully other entrepreneurs and other private equity companies out there, I can. very candidly tell this guy is the best in the business, right? So now let's get to rapid fire questions wrapping it up, right? I know you're a sports fan, right? Pro or college? What do you, what do you like? Tony Hazen (01:10:41.837) Mm-hmm. Tony Hazen (01:10:46.017) Well, you know, I was talking to somebody about this the other day. Once my sons, I've been blessed in the sense that they have all three been phenomenal athletes, just great citizens all around. But watching them play sports, once you see your son catch or throw that last second touchdown pass or make that last second three pointer or take over a game or something like that, just watching them have achievements, even if they don't have them at that level. It kind of numbs you to actual sports where your kids are playing. It's like that's the biggest thing. Like I'd rather go watch my son play a peewee football game than watch an NFL game at this point. Although they're already graduated out from that, but the short answer to answer your question. I love college football. I've kind of diminished my love of the NFL. I used to be a big NFL, less college football, but I like college football now a lot. And I like hockey. I didn't grow up playing it. But I just love the toughness of that sport. I think they've taken a lot out of it, you know? But I just, love the, you know, I like any contact sport. You put me in front of the TV with a contact sport, I'll watch it all day long. Hari Vasudevan (01:12:02.417) Interesting, interesting. So which is your favorite Hakka tea? Tony Hazen (01:12:07.533) Well, I used to love the Blackhawks when they had Patrick Kane and when he was new, because he was an American, you know, which is unusual in hockey. mean, most of the teams are American, but they've got a bunch of Canadians or Russians. awesome. It's just, you know, it's nice to see an American. He was being so successful and he was so clutch. They want some Stanley Cubs. So I don't root for team because Houston doesn't have a team, but I, I, um, Hari Vasudevan (01:12:21.801) Canadian. Yeah. Tony Hazen (01:12:36.461) I tend to root for teams that have players in hockey that I really gravitate towards, you whether it's a tough defenseman or really skilled, you know, wing or something like that. I really like it a lot. Hari Vasudevan (01:12:41.789) Interesting. Hari Vasudevan (01:12:49.617) Interesting. What about college, which is your favorite college team? Tony Hazen (01:12:54.723) well, University of Kentucky, obviously it's my alma mater, but you know, my wife went to university of Texas. So I back them pretty much in football. Cause we, we, we get close sometimes to make doing some damage in football, but we just never quite get there. We're more of a basketball school. so, you know, I, I just love good sec teams. love watching the sec do well. and I just love college football. I love the pageantry. I love how into it the players are for playing for the team they're playing for. even in today's, you know, Portal and IL, that still exists. And it still feels, you know, it's a lot of fun to watch it when those games come down to the line. Hari Vasudevan (01:13:26.77) And I don't think. Hari Vasudevan (01:13:36.613) Awesome. So let me ask you one UT question. Arch Manning. Is he going to make it or is he going to be a bust? Tony Hazen (01:13:46.734) If I had to call it right now, I would say he's gonna make it. And I think he's gonna get it figured out. And what Sarkeesian told him in that UTSA game when they were not performing well and the fans booed him before halftime, Sarkeesian told him, he said, now you're not at a real quarterback until you've been booed. And he's like, now you're a real quarterback. So, you know, he's grown up with this tremendous name and I still think he's a very humble kid. I think he gets it. I think that he's he's you know, I think that that that first game I think going up against Ohio State was a mistake. Maybe they had no control over that. I actually don't know how the scheduling in college works, but I think you need a tune up game as your first game. I mean throwing him into the lines then against Ohio State in his first game. I think hurt his confidence and he's built it back and I think that but I think he's just got too many tools. Hari Vasudevan (01:14:38.665) Clear. Tony Hazen (01:14:44.299) He's got too much institutional knowledge in that family. I think my money is on the fact that he's gonna be wildly successful. I could be wrong, but I'm still high on. Hari Vasudevan (01:14:56.669) Yeah. Who's going to win the national championship? Natty. Who's going to win the Natty this year? Make a pick, Tony. Tony Hazen (01:15:03.981) Gosh, think you know after this weekend, know who I think it's going to be going to my gut tells me it's going to be is LSU. I do. I think they're going to be mad as hell after that game and I think they're going to be on the warpath and I think they got a lot of talent and you know. Hari Vasudevan (01:15:12.937) Really? Tony Hazen (01:15:25.845) And I've got friends that are LSU fans and it pains me to say this because I want to see them lose. I think that they're going to honestly, if I had to call it right now, I think that loss was the biggest gift that they're going to get. Hari Vasudevan (01:15:40.539) Interesting, interesting, okay. Brian Kelly and his hundred million dollar contract. Better deliver tonight. Tony Hazen (01:15:47.246) I think he's gonna bring it home. Like I said, I take no joy in saying that. And look, I love all the SEC teams. We're like brothers. Kentucky's an old school SEC team. Like before, you had all these new teams coming into it. So I got a lot of love for those old school teams, but I think they will. But I mean, if I had a crystal ball, Harry, I would be sports betting every day instead of doing this. Hari Vasudevan (01:16:14.089) Alright, man. So final thing, man. You've been you've been just elected as the mayor of Houston. I'll give you an easy job. Mayor Hazen, what are you gonna do, my friend? Tony Hazen (01:16:32.521) I would fix our infrastructure. I think we have some of the worst roads globally that I've ever seen. And some of just it just you know a lot of that kind of stuff. I think that that Houston needs a makeover from an infrastructure perspective and you can't do anything about the weather. But but but I do think that that would be one of the key things that I would do. I think Houston's got a lot going for it, but if I was running Houston I would fix that. I'd make sure our police and law enforcement stay up to snuff. And I don't want to see us slide in that regard, which I think, just me personally, I think that's already happened. But those are probably the big things that I would fix right off the jump. Hari Vasudevan (01:17:17.875) Good, good, good, good priorities out there. Choney Hazen, my friend, one of the best in business, if not the best. Thank you so much for being on the show, my man. It's awesome to see you at DHR Global. I know you're gonna be super wildly successful and I can't wait to see you succeed in your new place at DHR. Tony Hazen (01:17:41.897) Well, I appreciate it, Harry, very much. And just to circle back very quickly on something you said, you're talking about how great I did building that management team. And I humbly appreciate the praise, but I will tell you that worked because of you. It's the partnership that's the key with Executive Search. You get a good Executive Search partner and a good key stakeholder in doing searches, you're going to make great music. But if one of the two is not bought in, and not really doing all the things they need to do to hold up their end of the bargain, it's not gonna be successful. I don't care how good the search person is. So kudos to you as well. And I would say a lot of really, really positive things. And I do say a lot of really positive things about you and the things you've done and your success as well. Hari Vasudevan (01:18:29.715) Man, thank you for those kind words, my friend. Tony Hazen (01:18:33.14) Awesome. Tony Hazen (01:18:39.95) you
ABOUT THE GUEST
Tony Hazen
Managing Partner at DHR Global

Tony Hazen is a Managing Partner in the Houston office of DHR Global, where he brings over two decades of experience in executive search. Specializing in the industrial and private equity sectors, Tony focuses on placing senior leaders who drive operational excellence and value creation. Known for his "blue-collar" work ethic and ability to relate to everyone from the shop floor to the C-suite, he helps founder-led businesses professionalize their leadership teams. Before entering search, Tony built his career through grit and tenacity, giving him a unique eye for identifying resilience in top-tier candidates.

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