Hari Vasudevan (00:01.266) All right, welcome to a new episode of From Boots to Boardroom. I'm your host, Hari Vasudevan, founder and CEO of Cairo AI. Previously, I was the founder and CEO of Think Power Solutions. Not every leader sits in a corner office. From Boots to Boardroom shares the journey as those who power America. From the job site to the boardroom. leading with grit, tenacity, empathy, and vision. Hope you'll find the show to be educational, entertaining, eye-opening, and entrepreneurial. Today, I'm sure it's going to be super entrepreneurial with my good buddy, Matt Cattell. So, presenting sponsor for the show is Cairo AI, digitized work and maximized profits. For more information, visit cairo.ai. Today's guest is Matt Cathell (00:41.248) Hari Vasudevan (01:00.398) Matt Cattell. Matt started Gunnison Tree Services in 1999 when he was just 17 years old. I really want to know what he did there, right? And then he sold Gunnison to a private equity firm in 2020. He continued to run Gunnison super successfully for many years after that. Matt was the EY Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year in 2022. which is a really big achievement. And he graduated from Middle Tennessee State University. All right, my friend Matt, thank you so much for coming on the show, my friend. Matt Cathell (01:36.055) Middle Tennessee, yep. Yep. Matt Cathell (01:43.593) No problem, Harry. Glad to do it, Hari Vasudevan (01:45.39) Awesome, awesome. You know, let's get started here. What did your parents feed you? How did you start a company at 17? Honestly, always been in awe of that. I mean, my guess is you and I are the same age. At 17, I was barely managing myself, right? And here you are, start a company that Matt Cathell (01:48.177) Yep. Hari Vasudevan (02:13.016) to this day stands this test of time. What's the secret, my friend? I really wanna know because I'm raising two kids here. Matt Cathell (02:21.512) Yeah, so hurry, I'll just kind of give you the quick backstory on the evolution of Gunnison and how it started even prior to 17. So. My parents hired a local tree company in Atlanta when I was four years old and. The second the crew showed up, I went outside and started watching these guys work. And I was absolutely enamored with the equipment. and the guys climbing trees and I sat on the curb and watched these guys work all day long. My mom called me in for lunch. I declined that offer. I stayed outside till dusk until the guys left. And from that point forward, I knew that I just had a passion for The tree business, being outdoors, being around heavy equipment, and just the climbing component of the business just had me reeled in. Hari Vasudevan (03:22.338) Wow, that's an interesting story. When I tell my friends that, I've always wanted to be a civil engineer, I've always wanted to be in construction for as long back as I can remember, People kind of laugh at me. They think I'm making things up, but it's a very similar story. When we were doing some renovations to our house, as a concrete grew out there, instead of... playing with my friends. would actually really watch the crews build stuff out in the heat and whatnot. I've always been enamored with construction since back then, but you were super eloquent in how what you did back when you were four years old. That is a fascinating. Matt Cathell (03:53.692) Yeah. Matt Cathell (04:08.975) And as you know, lot of little boys are into heavy equipment and they grow out of it, but I just never lost interest. And so every time there would be a tree crew in my parents' neighborhood, I would be glued to the operations and watching those guys work. And I told my parents, well, every Christmas I would ask for a climbing harness and a fake chainsaw. Hari Vasudevan (04:25.774) Interesting. Hari Vasudevan (04:38.976) Really? Wow! Matt Cathell (04:39.238) And I was so committed and I was that kid that just. You know, didn't want all the other traditional gifts for Christmas. I wanted to chainsaw a rope and a harness and I would go in our backyard and just scale trees and pretend to be cutting limbs. So it was it was just one of those passions. I was just born with it. And I always told my parents that. Hari Vasudevan (04:58.722) Wow. Hari Vasudevan (05:05.25) Yeah. Matt Cathell (05:07.643) The day that I turned 15, I want to go work for Odd Job Tree, which was the dominant player in Atlanta who my parents hired. And so literally the day that I turned 15, I called Eddie Thomas, the owner, and I said, Hey, Eddie, I want to come work for you in the summertime. And I want to learn the business. Every aspect of it from estimating jobs, working on equipment, climbing trees, interacting with customers, you name it. And so that's what I would do every single summer. Hari Vasudevan (05:41.23) What a story, right? What a story there. you know, between the time you were four, since you said you were enamored at four and then at 15 you go and work for Eddie, right? Is there any other things that you did? Like, know, many kids start out by, you doing lawns for their neighbors or things like that, car wash. Matt Cathell (05:50.319) Yeah. Matt Cathell (06:05.06) Yeah, so it always kind of pertained to the tree space. So I would sell Christmas trees. In December I would sell mistletoe along with the Christmas trees. Firewood as well. So I was always peddling some product. Service and it was, but it all was around trees. Hari Vasudevan (06:27.969) Interesting. Hari Vasudevan (06:33.774) So you're a true tree guy. So what, you know, I really want to know this. So on your first date with your beautiful wife, yes, what'd you say? Hey, I'm a tree guy? Matt Cathell (06:35.929) That's right. Matt Cathell (06:46.351) Well, Hari, that's funny you asked that. So real quick, my wife's aunt was my number one tree client in Atlanta. And she would call me, it's like an annuity, she would just call me three or four times a year just to come maintain her trees. And every time that I would go over there, she said, hey, my niece. Hari Vasudevan (06:57.56) Jeez. Matt Cathell (07:12.247) is moving from West Virginia to Atlanta, you should get together with her. She's single, you guys would make a couple, whatever. And I was dating someone at the time and then she ended up dating someone. And so she was adamant about setting us up. And so after four or five times trying over and over, over a couple of years, we finally connected. And the way that we connected was my wife was a baby photographer. Hari Vasudevan (07:42.574) Cheese. Okay. Matt Cathell (07:43.141) And she had a really unique business where she would take photographs of kids that were like, you know, a window of like eight to 15 days old. It is, but, part of her, I guess, lack of better words, prop or whatever the terminology is, she had to have a tree branch to hold some of these kids like in a hammock type scenario. And so my wife called me. Hari Vasudevan (07:53.934) It's very hard. Very hard, yeah. Matt Cathell (08:12.693) Well, at the time Facebook messaged me and said, hey, I've heard about you from my aunt. I was curious if you could find a branch for me for my treat for my photography business. And I told her absolutely, cause I was interested in meeting her anyways. So, so Hari, I intentionally. She gave me the dimensions of the branch she wanted. Hari Vasudevan (08:33.391) Hahaha! Matt Cathell (08:41.75) And I intentionally got the wrong one because I wanted an opportunity to follow up with her if I was really interested in her. So she comes over to my house. I show her what I gathered out in the field and she's like, that's not going to work. Turns out she was really cute and sweet. And I was like, all right, well, here's my opportunity to follow up with this date and say the rest was history from there. yeah. Hari Vasudevan (09:06.726) Wow, that's an interesting story. Which year was this? Matt Cathell (09:11.017) That was in 2010. Hari Vasudevan (09:15.116) And she does know this story, right? She knows that you did this on purpose. Interesting. That's a very interesting. Is there an aunt still your customer or Gunnison's customer? Matt Cathell (09:17.719) Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Matt Cathell (09:24.869) She is. Oh yeah, she uses us to get back. Always been a supporter. Now I charge her probably more actually. I'm kidding. She's pretty demanding. She's very particular and yeah, so we have to. We went to tedious job when we get over there for sure. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (09:27.446) Interesting. Does he get free services or? Hari Vasudevan (09:43.182) Awesome, awesome. So that's good, man. So you go and intern on the summers for Eddie, you said, And what is the name of the company again? Odd Jobs, is it? Matt Cathell (09:56.356) Odd job. wasn't like the name is just very random. I think the guy actually, Eddie started out doing just odd job projects, know, cleaning gutters, roof repair, whatever, but he really excelled in tree care. But that name always just stuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Correct. Right. Yeah, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (10:13.26) Yeah, it's a great name. Obviously sticks right so you you intern with him or you know summer jobs for two years. You obviously continue to love it right and then you go to middle Middle Tennessee State right? Is that right on that? Matt Cathell (10:25.218) Yes. Matt Cathell (10:29.624) Middle Tennessee. Correct. So I was dating a girl that got a soccer scholarship to Middle Tennessee State. And we thought that we were gonna 100 % get married. And so I got into several SEC schools, Alabama, Tennessee, Ole Miss. And I was just, I was sure that I was gonna marry this girl. And my dad told me not to do it. And my mom said the same thing, but of course, that's right. Yeah. So I was hard headed and went to middle Tennessee, got in a fraternity and realized that there are a lot of pretty girls at middle Tennessee and I didn't want to be locked down. So we ended up breaking up pretty quickly. And that was, I was off to my journey at middle Tennessee, actually getting Hari Vasudevan (11:01.826) But you know, who listens to their parents? Matt Cathell (11:27.948) and entrepreneurship degree. Yes. Hari Vasudevan (11:30.306) Okay, I did not know exactly what degree you got. So the degree in entrepreneurship in Middle Tennessee State. So while in Middle Tennessee State, so you're 17, so obviously you're going to college. And when did you start the company? You were still in Middle Tennessee State, right? Matt Cathell (11:33.505) Yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah. Matt Cathell (11:43.671) Yes. Matt Cathell (11:47.629) So I really technically started the company when I was like 14 years old in high school. I would go, my parents' neighbors knew that I was obsessed with the tree business because they would hear me in the backyard, you know, doing my thing and scaling trees and whatnot. And so they would call me up and I would, they would assign me a project or award me a project. And then I would hire my local neighborhood buddies to assist me on the ground, roping limbs down and bringing limbs to the chipper. And yeah, so that's really technically how it started in the neighborhood. so. Hari Vasudevan (12:26.926) You're making me feel worse now, right? I already felt bad when you said you started at 17. I didn't know what hell I was doing at 17. At 14, I didn't even know what the hell, even worse, right? So, awesome. Matt Cathell (12:38.595) But Hari, one important message I want to articulate here is the reason that I was really driven at that age is because in school, I really struggled. So I had dyslexia and today I think it has benefited me tremendously just from a resilience standpoint. I don't get bogged down. I will constantly work as hard as I can to accomplish a goal and I never give up. And that was one lesson that I learned in school with dyslexia is you have to adapt and things are challenging. And so I knew that I wasn't gonna be a doctor, I wasn't gonna be a lawyer, I didn't need to get some fancy degree. It was up to me to make it happen. And so when I found my passion, I went in a thousand percent. Hari Vasudevan (13:32.664) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (13:38.05) Yeah, beautiful. Matt Cathell (13:39.04) And so that's why when I knew what I wanted to do, I was all in. Hari Vasudevan (13:44.546) Yeah, you know, it is such a beautiful story for all everybody listening, most importantly, young people listening, right? You know, those are in the business of construction, veg management or linemen, you name it. Just because, you know, you have some issue, like, you know, dyslexia and think whatever it is, right? It does it shouldn't hold you back. It could still be enormously successful. You don't need a Matt Cathell (14:08.225) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (14:14.286) Ivy League degree to actually be super successful. Contrary to that, I mean, in fact, you know, my wife and I talk about it all the time. It's like I've seen kids who go to these super elite private schools, you know, when they're 30, 35, I don't see anything special in them, right? mean, this is my vantage point, right? mean, whereas you see kids who kind of overcome some adversity, they have the resilience and they have the ability to Matt Cathell (14:15.841) Correct. Matt Cathell (14:30.827) That's right. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (14:43.576) push through adversity and make the necessary sacrifices, which is candidly, it's all about entrepreneurship, right? Entrepreneurship, it's about, what sacrifices you make, how can you push through adversity? Because invariably you're gonna encounter challenges and how are you gonna be come on the other side successful. So it's a beautiful story. I mean, I really appreciate you sharing that such a deeply personal story, but you know, Matt Cathell (14:50.251) That's right. Matt Cathell (15:06.334) Correct. Matt Cathell (15:12.19) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (15:12.622) So some of the challenges there, what are some of the challenges that you encountered? Obviously, you just shared one, but you started a business at 14, 17, whatever you can call it as. I look at kids like you in my neighborhood and I'm willing to give them a business. I want them to succeed, right? But you also see others, it's like, know what, this kid doesn't know a whole lot. I'm not gonna allow them. Matt Cathell (15:22.228) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (15:39.882) in my property. mean, how did you overcome that youth, if you will, early on in life? Matt Cathell (15:45.471) Yeah, I mean it was challenging because. You know, as a 14 year old starting out and going around the neighborhood, nobody. Really took me that serious. And were they really confident about hiring a 14 year old to take down a tree next to $2,000,000 house in Buckhead? I mean that takes. A lot of coaching on my part to get them. comfortable with hiring me. So I felt like I would constantly struggle just when I would walk up to somebody's door and give them an estimate, just trying to make sure that they understood that I was committed to excellence and safety and preserving their property. that was not an easy, easy task at all. Hari Vasudevan (16:35.73) How did you overcome that? mean, that's a challenge. How did you overcome that? mean, Matt Cathell (16:40.257) I just, I was really diligent about making sure that I did whatever it took to make sure the job went perfect. And then referrals would start flowing through. So every time I would go to a new customer and maybe they were skeptical, I would bring a referral list of clients that they could call to verify that I was legit. And so, correct. Hari Vasudevan (17:03.074) Yeah, providing a great service. That's a great start, obviously, right? And your customer is your most important salesperson, right? As an entrepreneur, you service your existing customers well. They become a great source of referral. And because you don't have to give somebody else a discount to earn their business, somebody else says, hey, Matt is a great. Matt Cathell (17:09.002) Right. Matt Cathell (17:15.04) That's right. Matt Cathell (17:19.871) Yep. Matt Cathell (17:29.311) That's right. Hari Vasudevan (17:32.076) guy, you got to work with them and you know most people value trust and they trust people that they know and they're going to give you a business so you don't you don't spend on marketing dollars to earn more business. It's an easier way to sell. Is that a fair way to put it? Yeah so you you do that you you keep building it and I guess you were still going to school right because you finished it with me. Matt Cathell (17:37.033) Yep. Matt Cathell (17:47.977) Totally, yes, for sure. Matt Cathell (17:55.732) was. So just a quick kind of background on that. I went to a school in Atlanta, Georgia, Woodward Academy. It's a well-known school in College Park, Georgia. My sophomore year, because I was just, school was very challenging for me and I wasn't interested in it and I think that was a major part of why it was challenging for me. I wanted to be outside. I went to a school on the Emory campus in Atlanta called Ben Franklin Academy. And Ben Franklin Academy was a work study program. So the way that it was structured was you went to school from eight to 12 purely academics, and then you were required to have a job and work 30 hours a week. And so it was an exceptional fit for me because that's what I was looking to do. And so initially I actually started working at a car wash and I was making like $5 an hour and I knew that I was not satisfied with that whatsoever. And so I went to the headmaster of Ben Franklin, Wood Smithers was his name. And I said, Hey Wood, I'm very interested in starting my own tree company and I have a ton of experience. I've worked for Oddjob. They just laid it out to him and he said, Matt, I fully support what you want to do. However, that's an extremely dangerous business. Huge liability, but if you'll take this waiver home and show it to your parents and if they'll sign off on it, then you're good to go. And it didn't take my dad three seconds to sign the document. Hari Vasudevan (19:47.47) What did the waiver say? I really want to know. Matt Cathell (19:51.236) It was basically releasing the school of any liability of me scaling trees every day. Yes. Hari Vasudevan (19:56.43) Okay, I'm sure. I was just worried that the waiver said that, hey, know what, release the school plus any damage Matt causes you personally are responding to. Matt Cathell (20:06.035) Yeah, yeah, Nah, it was strictly around releasing them if I were to fall out of a tree or something. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (20:16.974) Your dad is like, you know what? It's good. I know my son. He's been like this since he was four years old. Matt Cathell (20:20.85) That's right. For sure. Yeah. But back to your point is yes, I was going to school during the day and then I would go work after, you know, call it 12 o'clock, 1230. Hari Vasudevan (20:34.636) Yeah, yeah. And how old were you again at this stage? This is high school, right? Matt Cathell (20:38.718) Sophomore year, so what? 16, 15? Yeah, right. Hari Vasudevan (20:42.326) Yeah, yeah, okay, okay. So you do this and you continue to manage, Gunnison always was in Georgia, right? Although you were in Tennessee, you were kind of managing it remotely, is that right? Matt Cathell (20:51.688) Correct. That's right. Yeah, so when I was in Middle Tennessee, I was continuing to run my company. I would come home on the weekends and sell work for the week ahead for the crew. And I had one crew and we would line out the week and. You know, it was a very challenging time for me because trying to manage the business from a classroom was extremely difficult. And. Hari Vasudevan (21:18.914) Yeah. Matt Cathell (21:20.815) In fact, you know, there were times that I would like answer my phone in the classroom taking an estimate call and my professor would be like, Matt, you can't do this. That's right, I'm taking I'm showing you guys what entrepreneurship is. This is. Hari Vasudevan (21:30.318) Yeah, but then you're like, hey, I'm taking entrepreneurship. So, tell me this, my friend. This is a fascinating story. So how many crews did you have at that time when you were in Middle Street? One crew, you said. Matt Cathell (21:46.664) So I just had one crew and it was really, like I said, it was super challenging. We actually had my main guy, Troy Barker, would have to pick up our climber every morning at the bus stop. He didn't have a driver's license. And so there was always some debacle about Jimmy showing up or not. And I would get phone calls when I'm trying to study and in class. It was just, it was a very challenging time in my business. Hari Vasudevan (22:13.516) I'm sure, but it's also a phenomenal learning time for you, both at school as well as probably more at Gunnison than at school, honestly, right? So how much were you doing in terms of revenue back in the day? Matt Cathell (22:18.063) Yeah. Matt Cathell (22:23.72) for sure. Matt Cathell (22:29.528) When I was at Middle Tennessee, we were generating about $800,000 in revenue. Hari Vasudevan (22:35.734) No kidding. 800,000. So you definitely got out of college debt free. Wow. For all those kids watching or listening, seriously, you know, struggling to pay for college or, you know, wondering how to go to college. If you really want to do something in America. Matt Cathell (22:37.222) Yeah, yeah, it was it was pretty yeah, it was pretty healthy. Yeah. Matt Cathell (22:45.029) Yeah, yes, for sure. Yes. Hari Vasudevan (23:05.421) American good old American capitalism, you can figure it out. You really can figure it out. Really, Matt is a living proof. I'm obviously living proof. But but your story is so much more fascinating. Middle Tennessee state. You're making eight hundred thousand dollars a year in revenue when you are barely, you know, you know, first, second year in college, I guess, a freshman. Matt Cathell (23:10.013) That's right. That's right. Matt Cathell (23:15.644) Yeah. Matt Cathell (23:31.9) That's right, correct, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (23:33.452) And did the business grow when you were in college? Matt Cathell (23:36.508) It really did not grow very much because it was hard to scale it just not being there, Hari. So I could only sell so much work on the weekends for the next week and I could never get it to a point of scale. So it really just kind of stayed stable at 800 grand. Hari Vasudevan (23:51.374) But man, know, it's serious commitment in your serious commitment when you're a college kid, you know, going to college, doing your classwork and, you know, understanding that there are a couple of families who are responsible for, you're responsible for, selling work for them and managing them. know, did they feel like they're working for a kid or did they respect you or how do you under respect them? Matt Cathell (24:07.194) Yeah, for sure. Matt Cathell (24:17.233) They respected me just because when I wasn't at Middle Tennessee, they had worked with me and I actually was working with them every single day and climbing trees. So in our business, like that is how you get the ultimate respect. You roll your sleeves up and you get dirty and you do what they're doing every day. So I had that respect and they didn't feel like they were working for a kid. Hari Vasudevan (24:33.496) You fold your sleeves. Hari Vasudevan (24:39.256) Yeah, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (24:46.092) Yeah, now it's actually interesting you say that because you know one of the things I always say is you know, you know have an engineering degree, but you know many engineers don't necessarily start off in the field. I was fortunate to actually start off in the field, understand the challenges that the guys in the field face, empathetic towards that, right? The challenges that they face on a day in day. But to this day I feel like that has been the greatest. One of the greatest reasons for my success is because I understand their. Matt Cathell (25:03.86) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (25:15.52) issues and I am engaged with that I kind of manage it based on that right so so these guys that you had back in the day are they still kind of sin or have they retired? Matt Cathell (25:16.451) Correct. Matt Cathell (25:19.997) That's right. Matt Cathell (25:26.476) Now, Troy went to get work for another tree company. I don't know what he's not with them anymore. I'm not sure what Jimmy's doing. Jimmy actually worked for odd job for a long time. And then he came to work for me. Yeah, I don't think either one of them are still in the business, but I could be wrong. We unforced. Hari Vasudevan (25:48.888) Yeah. What is your pitch to Troy and Jimmy when you recruited them? Hey, I'll give you a buck more, two bucks more, or you have independent. What is your company kind of different from other three businesses? Matt Cathell (26:01.134) You know, my philosophy with recruiting and hiring good talent hurry is I want to compensate everybody well and above industry standards. And I know that seems like a very simple recipe for hiring people because most people are chasing the dollar. But from that point, having them on board and then developing the culture and the respect. Like I can. I can kind of take them to the next level and so, and groom them internally. But I would always, you know, hand select. I was able to like intuitively just know when I was making a good hire. I could just, I was blessed with that ability and just to kind of check the pedigree of the employee that I was. you know, bringing on and make sure we have the same core values and, and, and it worked. But, you know, my secret sauce, it was always just like paying people extremely well, taking care of them, acting. Well, I was always engaged and I actually cared about their personal life and their families. It wasn't just me blowing smoke. it was, it was a family. Hari Vasudevan (27:23.948) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you were there for them during thick and thin. You were there for them. You were there for them physically, emotionally, mentally. You were there and they felt like they were not a number in your company. And the extra, you know, a few bucks you might have paid for them, you clearly compensated. They clearly compensated for you because, you know, you trusted them at the end of the day. A business can. Matt Cathell (27:27.619) of employees. Yes. That's right, right. Correct. Yes. Matt Cathell (27:42.181) Correct. Matt Cathell (27:53.307) That's right. Hari Vasudevan (27:55.522) go from an entrepreneur, you scaling the trees rather, climbing the trees to 50, 100 people climbing the tree on your behalf, that you have to have trusted people, especially in a high risk business like tree business, right? So that's fascinating. you continue to manage your business, you scale, then you graduate out of college with an entrepreneurship degree. Now continue on your story, Matt, this is fascinating. Matt Cathell (28:03.227) Correct. Matt Cathell (28:06.843) That's right. Yep, for sure. Matt Cathell (28:21.4) Yeah, so then that's when Gunnison went into high gear when I got out of Middle Tennessee and came back to Atlanta. yes, correct. I knew that like I was going to pour some fuel on the business. And I was 100 % committed. I didn't have school distracting me. Hari Vasudevan (28:32.066) This is 2003. Matt Cathell (28:49.274) I could fully focus on it. So I just really started building the business organically through referrals. And it got to a point where I was getting so many referrals, my business was growing 30 % organically every year. Hari Vasudevan (29:06.542) 30 % organically every year in a business like, you know, service business like tree care is really high growth, by the way, right? Matt Cathell (29:19.16) Yeah, and I know that I mean, it's not sustainable, but like I had four year run of just 30 % growth every year, minimum. And so it got to a point where instead of me doing the work myself, I had to step back and say, okay, in order for me to continue to grow this business and scale this business, I need to hire professionals to start doing this work and get climbers estimators and so I went out I had all the work in the world coming to me and everybody started to hear about Gunnison and other companies were losing market share so I just started getting calls from people who wanted to come work for me. Yeah. And so. Hari Vasudevan (30:10.572) Wow. Wow. Matt Cathell (30:16.548) There was actually one day we were working in Buckhead, which is just a deciduous forest of trees in Atlanta. It's kind of a high end area. And one of my competitors was working across the street and this competitor had the best climbers. They were just notorious for hiring the most talented climbers. And those climbers actually walked over to my project and said, Hey, we just see the momentum that Gunnison has going on right now. We want to come work for you. And so I was like, all right, well, show me what kind of skills you have. And so they shimmied up these trees and removed some massive branches over this house. And I was just really floored by their capabilities. And so when I hired that crew, that really snowballed Gunnison and our ability to continue to scale into the most technical work in the city of Atlanta. So the, reputation, we were known for removing the most hazardous trees in the most difficult situations with the largest equipment. All of my competitors, Most of them were doing kind of just routine cookie cutter type tree service offerings. And Gunnison was the company you would call if you had a 80 inch Southern Red Oak hanging over your house, it was half uprooted. And we would bring out our crane and rent a crane at the time and remove it. Hari Vasudevan (32:04.558) So you are the, you're not Gunnison Tree Services, you're Gunnison Super Tree Services. So call the super hand. Matt Cathell (32:10.102) Yes, yes, I just figured I was like, I've this is a very saturated space and I've got to differentiate myself and this is how I'm going to do it. Hari Vasudevan (32:23.958) It's super interesting. I definitely did not know about all these nuances of your business, right? So, you became the company to work for within Atlanta. You attract talent just based on the growth, the momentum you have. And obviously, people love to work for young, charismatic leaders. And you're there and the company continues to grow. Matt Cathell (32:30.402) Yeah. Matt Cathell (32:38.488) That's right. Matt Cathell (32:41.954) Yes. Matt Cathell (32:47.479) Right. Hari Vasudevan (32:52.43) And then what happens after that? So you're still serving homeowners, right? But let me before you go further, let me ask you this question. You know, 30 % growth year on year, or if not more, you hire more people, obviously buy more equipment, right? What are some of the challenges you faced with growth? Because let me tell you a couple of challenges generally companies face. You grow outside your Matt Cathell (33:05.301) Yeah. Yes. Hari Vasudevan (33:20.6) comfort zone of the employees that you know, right? Think Power, the first company I started and ran, zero to 10, everybody I knew. 10 to 50, it was the people that I still knew, right? 50 to 100, you go outside your circle. And then beyond that, it's like you really don't know who you're hiring, right? As you trust referrals and we put a great referral program and whatnot. So that's one issue. The other issue is companies run out of money, working capital. It's like, especially in a business like yours, heavy equipment, you got to invest and whatnot. So walk us through how you manage those two challenges or other challenges. Matt Cathell (33:49.569) Yes. Matt Cathell (33:57.152) Yeah, so Hari, that's a really good point question. I mean, to say that that was a challenge is an understatement. I I had extremely supportive parents, but I was always super prideful about not coming to them. My dad made a good living, but he was never like so well off that he just had excess cash just to throw around. So I was too prideful to ever ask my parents for any help financially, even though they would have done anything in the world for me. So I would just, you know, save up enough money, free cashflow to buy a piece of equipment and self-fund my operation. But it got to a point where I was growing organically so much and scaling the business that I had to look at alternative options for financing equipment. And so at the time, mean, my balance sheet was zero. And, you know, going in, I had some banks, local banks that were really supportive and wanting to do business with me. But that was, that was challenging to get that across the finish line. So I would have to kind of chip it away because they would only give me so much capacity and I would go out and Hari Vasudevan (34:59.831) like what you did. Got it. Matt Cathell (35:23.765) buy a chipper truck and a chipper and try to pay that off or pay it down significantly to where I could go buy another one. And then just managing cash flow. You know, I didn't have a CPA at the time. I was kind of at best outsourcing that, but it was all on me and QuickBooks and trying to figure that out. And, you know, I had enough business acumen to, you know, to zone in on the important aspects of analyzing a Hari Vasudevan (35:52.428) You had enough business acumen to know that you were making money and you had to pay. Matt Cathell (35:55.594) Yeah, my barometer was do I have cash in my account? Right. Hari Vasudevan (36:01.07) Same here, right? Same here. And you were smart enough to know that you had a silent partner in Uncle Sam and guess the head of Georgia. you had to, you know, many entrepreneurs miss this, honestly. I as funny as it may seem, it's actually an important point. I actually know people who make great money one year, let's say 2024, but they're... Matt Cathell (36:12.278) That's right. Totally. Matt Cathell (36:26.55) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (36:28.174) don't realize that, next year you have to make quarterly payments based on what you made in 2024, repay your taxes, right? And they miss it. And then end of the year, Uncle Sam comes chasing after them. obviously you are smart enough to know some of the basics, your cashflow and have a line of credit to finance equipment. But it's not easy. Let's put it this way. It's not easy. Matt Cathell (36:32.118) That's right. Matt Cathell (36:35.51) Correct. Yes. Matt Cathell (36:56.758) Correct. Not at all. And so just trying to balance that was really tough. know, there were even times where, you know, I was like, I don't know if I'm going be able to make payroll this week. I would have receivables outstanding and I had completed a lot of work and I had revenue on the books, but like I wasn't collecting everything. So, I mean, I can't even tell you how many sleepless nights I had just. How am I gonna manage through this and make payroll happen? And. Hari Vasudevan (37:29.422) How did you go through those times, man? Because this is such a fascinating topic. Because I find such a stark difference between people who sign the front of the checks, is entrepreneurs, versus people who sign the back of the checks in deposit. I mean, honestly, many corporate people. There's room for everybody in America, basically in the world. You need people of all talents. But the entrepreneurial mindset of Matt Cathell (37:41.194) Yeah. Matt Cathell (37:50.933) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (37:56.8) actually wanting to make the payroll, the challenge, the emotional drain that we all go through. How did you manage that? Matt Cathell (37:59.594) Yes. Matt Cathell (38:08.201) You know, it's tough. just kind of goes back to my comment about just being resilient. I refuse to fail and I just did everything in my power to make, make sure things happened. And even though things were out of my control, you know, as an entrepreneur, I got scrappy and was thinking outside of the box about how to solve problems. But like, you know, for example, you know, Worried about making payroll. It would be a it would boil down to me driving around these neighborhoods and just walking up to people's houses and collecting checks just so that I could make sure my people were taken care of. Hari Vasudevan (38:50.904) Yeah, because your reputation is at stake. At that point, if you had to maintain that, you know, reputation for Gunnison to be the place to work, you had to make paramount. Matt can be a great guy. You're screwed, honestly, right? So you go through that, you go through this enormous growth period, 30 % year after year, tough. Matt Cathell (39:03.058) Yes, that's right. Yeah, you you miss you miss one payroll and it's over. Yeah, you're not. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (39:20.6) cash flow, you had a line of credit, buying equipment, cheaper, all these kind of things, right? You continue to grow. What is your, I mean, did your growth kind of slow down at that point? Matt Cathell (39:23.017) Yes. Matt Cathell (39:31.508) It really didn't slow down. was able to manage through it. You know, I was kind of capitalizing on 179 deduction, bonus depreciation. So whatever equipment I would purchase would kind of offset my tax liability. So I was reinvesting in the business, but Hari Vasudevan (39:51.694) That's a very, very good federal tax credit. Many entrepreneurs, especially those of you in the business of buying heavy equipment, maybe really appreciate it. I know some people who buy this heavy truck and ride it off, that's far and far between, it's not a big deal. But for those in this business, construction business, vegetation management business, who have to invest in equipment. Matt Cathell (39:57.684) Yes. Matt Cathell (40:09.32) Yeah, yeah. Correct. Hari Vasudevan (40:18.656) It's a huge tax break, would you not agree? It incentivizes you to invest in the company. Matt Cathell (40:21.49) Totally. And for me, it wasn't like I was just buying equipment to buy equipment. I legitimately needed the equipment. So it wasn't me just trying to offset my taxes. It was I need this for growth and I get the benefit of what they've put in place. Yeah. So to answer your question, like, yes, I was able to manage through that time, even though it was super tight for me. You know, I wasn't paying myself much. Hari Vasudevan (40:25.774) Sure. Hari Vasudevan (40:37.314) Yeah, yeah, that's great. Matt Cathell (40:51.602) I was making sure I was taking care of my people. I was servicing my debt with the bank. But I was continuing to gain momentum and grow the business. Hari Vasudevan (41:03.308) Yeah, yeah. Okay, so still at this stage, which year are we in right now? Matt Cathell (41:09.94) Let's, we're in, you know, 2014. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (41:15.31) 2014, residential is still your primary business. Matt Cathell (41:19.902) That's our primary core business. And so what was really a turning point for Gunnison in that timeframe was there was a lady forester at Georgia Power, Trudy Brandow, who I had developed a relationship with just being in the community. And, you know, she was always kind of plugged into the tree companies in Atlanta. That was her primary focus. And she called me one day and said, hey, Matt, we've had a relationship with a local tree company. It's a partnership. Two guys own it together and they're just having a really difficult time just operating together. they're essentially, they're going to shut the business down. Correct. And she said, Matt, I know that Hari Vasudevan (42:13.026) because they couldn't get along. Matt Cathell (42:17.841) Gunnison is known for their technical capabilities with cranes. Would you be interested in doing some one off tree removals around our distribution lines where we have identified trees that are hazardous and we're trying to improve reliability? And I said at the time already, I mean I would take on any job whatsoever. I never I never said no. And so. Hari Vasudevan (42:42.274) Yeah, of course, of course. But did you know at that time when this lady with Georgia Power, Trudy, did you know at the time when she called you how much of an impact this is going to have on your business? Matt Cathell (42:59.217) really didn't at the time. Like I knew Georgia Power was an incredible customer to have, but I never was able to quantify the volume that could come out of it. So they were testing the waters with me and just kind of giving me a one off opportunities just to, mean, their primary focus is safety first and foremost. Hari Vasudevan (43:12.322) Yeah, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (43:24.482) Yeah, yeah. So honestly for entrepreneurs, one of the key lessons here is embrace the unknown. Take risks right in just because you don't know a market like in this case you didn't know the utility market on the veg management side. Take calculated risks. What's the worst thing that could happen? You could go theoretically you could fail and you know business that could be pretty bad, but you know. Matt Cathell (43:31.472) Yeah. Yes. Hari Vasudevan (43:51.839) you still have the residential business to fall back on and run with it. So take chances in life, right? Yes, keep going. Matt Cathell (43:54.93) Correct. That's right, right. So, Georgia Power, you know, started feeding me one-off removals. The first year was probably $150,000 worth of work. We demonstrated to them that we could do the work safely, efficiently, and cost-effectively. So, the following year, you know, that was 300 grand. It doubled. And then the next year, it doubled again and just kept snowballing and growing. Hari Vasudevan (44:18.274) Double! Matt Cathell (44:26.756) And so we really developed that partnership with Georgia Power. And just that we were their trusted partner. We had. Basically like a preservation approach to at Gunnison where we were not all about just creating sawdust and removing trees, but we were also like the the local tree company preserving the canopy in Atlanta. So. Tour de Power is always trying to balance that with the customers with trimming trees and preserving trees. So we were like kind of a one stop shop for them. Hari Vasudevan (45:02.542) You knew the local culture, you the local needs, and you knew what they valued. so, you know, that made a lot of sense. So you continue to grow Georgia power. Matt Cathell (45:04.742) Yeah. Matt Cathell (45:13.477) Yeah. Just keep, keep, continue to grow. And then, I got into like heavy clearing, municipality work, just kept growing my business. At this point I'm doing. Hari Vasudevan (45:27.346) How did these businesses come about, Matt? So, you know, I really want to help our listeners understand this. you know, obviously residential, that's where you started off with, Georgia Power, you know, somebody in the community. How did the rest of the veg marriage go? Matt Cathell (45:35.503) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the Georgia TOT work originated. So Georgia Power had a separate unregulated division called Power Services Group. And we had a great relationship with them. And so they started doing or bidding on DOT projects that were open bid projects. And we were their preferred partner. So Power Services Group would land a DOT project. And then Gunnison was their go-to player. Hari Vasudevan (46:06.872) You're right. because of your work with Georgia Power, right? Obviously, yes. Matt Cathell (46:10.139) So. Correct, correct. So at this point in time, you know Gunnison's doing. 15 million of top line revenue. I'm having to constantly reinvest in the business with equipment. I'm growing. I'm cash flowing, but I'm still not just. You know my liquidity situation is improved a little bit, but it's still tight. And so. Hari Vasudevan (46:34.082) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt Cathell (46:36.816) The DOT work was very specialized with heavy equipment, forestry equipment. So I went out and bought, you know, I invested in two and a half million dollars worth of equipment to service those accounts. And I bought fell bunchers, excavators, whole tree chippers, everything. I was fully committed. And so that business, you know, in 2017 generated a couple million dollars worth of revenue, the DOT work. Hari Vasudevan (46:55.31) Got it. Matt Cathell (47:03.918) And we kept growing every year up until about 2019. And that business just got super saturated overnight. And a lot of competition came in and just started low balling projects. these. Yeah, exactly. Vendors and the vendors were not qualified, but they checked the box for the DOT and all they cared about was. Hari Vasudevan (47:14.296) Huh. Hari Vasudevan (47:22.018) saturated benders you're talking about, right? Yes, okay. Matt Cathell (47:32.528) who gave us the best price. So at that time, fortunately, I was able to pivot because I had a tremendous amount of investment in this equipment in manpower. And I got a call from Dan Bure at Georgia Power who was head of forestry and right away. And he said, hey, Matt, you you guys have demonstrated us with the routine one-off or the one-off removal work. that you guys are capable of doing utility work, would you be interested in a routine maintenance contract in Savannah and Atlanta, Georgia, which are the two most critical areas for Georgia power, keeping the lights on? And as I've mentioned already, I never said no. And so that point in my career, Hari Vasudevan (48:15.598) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (48:24.398) You're never saying no. Matt Cathell (48:31.608) was super challenging because I was accustomed to working with all the residential tree climbers and the core fundamentals of that work and utility work are totally different. And so I had to like reprogram my brain and really focus on hiring the right talent. Hari Vasudevan (48:44.696) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (48:56.066) You had to go outside of your comfort zone. Yes. Matt Cathell (48:57.912) Yes, so initially, so I was awarded a lump sum bid project in Savannah. And. We were geared up ready to go one mistake that I made and it fortunately worked out where there nobody got hurt. I started the project using residential tree crews. And. Within about one day. I said, you know what, I'm calling time out, I'm pumping the brakes, I'm gonna surround myself with people that know this space really well, and I'm gonna sit back and I'm gonna find the best crews to recruit. And so I went out. Hari Vasudevan (49:45.442) Yeah. Yeah. But you know, kudos to you for that, right? You didn't push through on getting the job done with what was obviously, Einstein turned out to be an unqualified crew for that job, right? They're qualified for something else, but they're unqualified for the job. You didn't necessarily try to get the job done. You stopped, right? As you know, in the companies I run, human performance is a huge piece of the puzzle. That's what they say. It's like, hey, slow down. Matt Cathell (49:57.902) Correct. Matt Cathell (50:01.57) Yes, that's right. Matt Cathell (50:15.278) percent. Hari Vasudevan (50:18.802) and think about what could happen if something goes wrong. And in this case, clearly, you thought that if you pushed through, this could end in disaster and potentially the end of Gunnison, right? Yes. So you pull the crew back. Matt Cathell (50:32.494) That's right, 100%. I just set time out. I've got to focus and get the best people to do the job. Otherwise, your point, Gunnison could be done overnight. And so I got with some folks that could help me with recruiting. And I got a hot lead one day from a guy that worked at Davy Tree. And he said, hey, I've got this pod of guys. We have 55 guys. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (50:46.765) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (51:04.044) guys. Matt Cathell (51:07.415) We were not happy here and we're looking for a change and we know Gunnison's been awarded a bunch of work from Georgia Power. You know, can we, I was like, yeah, right. Let me, let's go to lunch and talk. And I just want to make sure this is a good personality fit and that we're aligned on expectations and that you want to work for me and that it's a, you know, we're all, we're all there together. And so, met with Ray, it was a good fit. And so I hired all these guys overnight. Hari Vasudevan (51:28.888) Yeah, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (51:36.77) Wow. Matt Cathell (51:37.038) And my payroll went from, it skyrocketed. Yeah, that's right. And so we went in and I was able to secure some rental equipment at the time, because I couldn't afford to go out and buy all brand new trucks. And I made it happen and we knocked out the project seamlessly on target, safely, and Georgia Power was super happy. And so... Hari Vasudevan (51:41.55) Obviously, 55 eyes, man. Matt Cathell (52:06.06) Shortly after that, I was awarded the routine maintenance contract in Atlanta, Georgia. And I had to make a significant investment in people and equipment again. And I went out and it was about a $6 million equipment purchase that I had to go to the bank and get a loan on. And I had to hire more utility people. And I just... kept growing the business organically and, you know, taking small risk, not small risk, large risk really, and putting my name on the line and personally guaranteeing everything and just kept building the business. And now we're at, you know, 25 million of revenue. And the, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (52:44.546) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (52:52.364) Yeah, yeah. But you know what it got you there, it's the key piece of the puzzle. There's no reward without risk. You clearly had the conviction in yourself, the belief and the confidence in your own abilities, right? You took calculated risks and you were constantly reinventing yourself, right? Going from, you know, Matt Cathell (53:00.952) Correct. Matt Cathell (53:09.921) Yes. Matt Cathell (53:19.565) Thanks Hari Vasudevan (53:21.996) residential to hiring the best talent to Georgia power to DOT to hey, you know what, I need to pivot from DOT to something that I can do work in a market I know with the equipment that I've already invested in. And then that leads to more challenges. You need to hire better skilled people or more appropriate skilled people. You hire the right skilled people. Matt Cathell (53:30.37) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (53:50.593) and then you invest more money. The journey is full of twists and turns. You have to constantly reinvent yourself, right? Yeah, it's not a straight line. Keep going, 25 million bucks. Matt Cathell (54:01.133) Absolutely. For sure. Yeah. So then, you know, I was able to kind of prove out the utility concept with Georgia Power and I wanted to keep growing my business. I went after Ray, the guy I hired, he had a relationship with Dominion Energy. And so I went into their office with Ray and another estimator sales guy, Andrew, and we met with the forestry group at Dominion. Hari Vasudevan (54:19.469) Yeah. Matt Cathell (54:30.789) And they had heard good things about Gunnison. so they were like, all their work is lump sum. It's not hourly work. And so we went out and rode several circuits in the Charleston, Columbia area. correct. Yeah, correct. Sorry. And yeah, and I was then I get awarded a, you know, $9 million contract with them. Yep. Hari Vasudevan (54:48.824) South Carolina, right? Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (54:57.762) Jeez, wow, fantastic. Matt Cathell (55:00.106) So it's all over again. I'm having to hire more people, buy more equipment. But at this point, you know, I've got 200 plus employees. know, safety is absolutely paramount in our business. And so I'm having to really look at the structure of my business and make sure I've got enough coverage in place with safety personnel. Hari Vasudevan (55:16.546) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (55:24.12) Yeah. Matt Cathell (55:26.24) because that is the one thing in our business that can derail the entire program. Hari Vasudevan (55:30.542) you know, I mean, I had an issue. You may or may not know this. As I was scaling ThinkPower pretty rapidly, 2018, this is a sad story for me, but I'm going to share this anyway, 2018, we won a five-year, $60 million contract with Entogy, right? And the next day, Matt, believe it or not, there was an incident where we happened to be on the site where it happened. I mean, now it's all Matt Cathell (55:52.62) Right. Hari Vasudevan (56:00.397) done. mean the case is settled so it's all good. And we lost that contract. And obviously we also had to settle and things like that. But know safe, literally the next day. And you know it is, but you know what that told me was I was always, we were already on the path to human performance. But I just Matt Cathell (56:08.691) Jeez. Matt Cathell (56:14.368) Dang. The next day, Holy. Matt Cathell (56:27.115) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (56:29.666) double down on safety and human performance. We just let a fire on the company saying, know what, this could really go wrong, right? And so we had to really, really double down on health and safety and human performance, right? So it's a big piece of the puzzle. So here you are at 200 plus employees, company's growing, safety is a key piece. Matt Cathell (56:46.215) Absolutely. Matt Cathell (56:52.459) The company's going rapidly. The utility business is dangerous, just like anything in the tree business is. And I'm just having sleepless nights about making sure that I've got a safety presence because that was top of mind and the quickest way for me to lose my company overnight. And so I was able to secure some really strong... Hari Vasudevan (57:11.95) 100 % Matt Cathell (57:17.917) safety people that are, you know, we're out patrolling every single day and making sure we were in compliance and building the culture that we wanted to have from a safety perspective. And so, you know, I had some bad hires, I some good hires, but all in all, we were able to build the right, assemble the right team. Hari Vasudevan (57:37.262) The key thing with bad hires is, fail fast. The minute you know that somebody's not a fit for a variety of reasons, even the most talented people may not be fit for your company, move on quickly. It's good for them, good for us. Matt Cathell (57:41.087) That's right. Matt Cathell (57:45.643) Correct. Move on. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So after landing, you know, several large investor and utility customers and cooperatives, I had a just ton of momentum going and just the the runway for growth was kind of endless. And one day I get an email from an investment banker. who was friends, whose parents were friends with my in-laws. And I didn't really know the guy. And he reached out and said, hey, Matt, have you ever thought about selling Gunnison? You know, would love to go out and grab lunch and catch up. And I blew the email off for like a couple of weeks. He followed up with me and I was just, at the time I was like, you know, I'm growing my business. I like what I'm doing. I don't think my business is worth anything really. And it's just like, what am I going to do? So I take a lunch with this guy and he's asking me, you know, some high level, let's your, what's your top line revenue look like and what is your EBITDA? And I never measured my business from an EBITDA perspective. Hell, hardly knew what it was. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (58:48.45) Yeah, that's what everybody thinks, right? Hari Vasudevan (59:08.954) None of us do. honestly, I know. mean, first companies, most entrepreneurs, they don't really understand it. You know, because you really measure your cash and things like that, you may not even have a very great financial statement because you're hiring a CPA. Some of us get lucky getting a great CPA. Some of us are not so lucky, right? So it happens. Matt Cathell (59:17.013) Correct. Matt Cathell (59:32.148) Right. And so I eventually take a lunch. We talk about it. You know, he gives me kind of back a napkin, you know, let me look at your financials and I'll calculate what your EBITDA is. And he's educating me on the process of going to market and talking to different strategic and private equity firms and what multiple that I could potentially get paid on my EBITDA. And so I finally said, you know what? I'm ready to de-risk a little bit. I've taken risks my entire life. And I want to partner with a strategic partner that's going to help me grow the business and provide capital and really management and helping with hiring. And at the time I was still wearing a thousand different hats. And so I initially started with not wanting to sell majority of my company and Hari Vasudevan (01:00:20.824) Yeah, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:00:29.015) Yeah. Matt Cathell (01:00:31.143) David, my advisor, was like, that's fine. There's a market for minority partnerships. Yeah, there's plenty of them out there. And so we went through a process, didn't go broadly. It was a small group. And I went under LOI with a group in Atlanta. And at the time Gunnison was still doing a fair amount of DOT work. Hari Vasudevan (01:00:35.95) We're not recaps. Hari Vasudevan (01:00:59.81) Yeah, yeah. Matt Cathell (01:01:00.841) And the margin on that work was if you bet it, if the competition was busy and they couldn't bid on work, you could hit a home run. And so my margin profile for that work was astronomical. Hari Vasudevan (01:01:10.819) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:01:15.143) But if they're not busy... Matt Cathell (01:01:17.342) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the other, yeah. So we lock horns with this group and we're getting towards, you know, kind of the finish line. They've done all their due diligence. You know, their skeptic. Correct, yes, correct. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. And so we get down to the finish line and right as we're, you know, 30 days out from closing, you know, the competition just races into the DOT work. Hari Vasudevan (01:01:31.062) And this is for a minority recap. Yes. OK. Yes. Matt Cathell (01:01:46.153) and just completely sabotages the market. And I just go from a couple million of 50 % margins to zero. And so they, understandably so, got, I guess for lack of better words, a little spooked in their underwriting process. And I understand, but I was frustrated and Hari Vasudevan (01:01:48.938) Explored, Hari Vasudevan (01:01:59.215) Cheese. Wow. Hari Vasudevan (01:02:14.914) and the beam falls apart, right? Matt Cathell (01:02:16.893) Yeah, and I had deal fatigue and so David said, hey Matt, know, just take a deep breath. You know, let's just continue to prove out the utility business and what you've created and scaling that. then what? That was in. 20 2018. Hari Vasudevan (01:02:32.684) And which year was this? Which year did the deal fall apart? Matt Cathell (01:02:42.386) And so. Hari Vasudevan (01:02:43.47) Hey, Matt, just before you keep going, you know, I told you, entrepreneurial journeys can be very fascinating. We're one hour, 15 minutes into our call. I can keep going. I just want to make sure there's no hard stuff for you on this. Okay, keep going. Matt Cathell (01:02:55.817) Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're good. mean, yeah, the next 15, 20 minutes or whatever, we can wrap it up or. Hari Vasudevan (01:03:00.142) know, gaved on what you're going, I think it'll keep going. Beautiful. I love this journey. I I think the listeners will really appreciate the journey. Honestly, keep going. Matt Cathell (01:03:02.983) Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Matt Cathell (01:03:10.552) So, know, get down, you know, whole deal falls apart. And, you know, Dave, I'm still just my personality. like, you know what? I'm going to be resilient. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:03:24.29) You're resilient. Honestly, that comes over again and again and again. Matt Cathell (01:03:27.91) Yeah, and that really benefited me just having that. Hari Vasudevan (01:03:44.834) Hey, your thing went off by the way. Matt Cathell (01:03:50.093) Sorry. However, did I break up for a minute? Hari Vasudevan (01:03:50.563) Yeah, you know you you're you. Yeah, so you are at. I told you about resilient and then there's a little bit of a chop there. yeah. Matt Cathell (01:03:59.084) Okay, sorry. So David, my advisor was like, Matt, okay, you've proven out the utility concept. You're in a really good position to go back out to market. However, I would recommend that you contemplate doing a majority transaction. I feel like there's a better buyer pool for you in kind of the partnership that you're looking for. And so I was like, okay, I'm good with that. He walked me through it. And so we went out. And we ran another semi, it was just a small market of private equity investors in the Southeast. And I interviewed several of them, one strategic, and I ended up partnering with Warren Equity out of Jacksonville, Florida. And it was more of just their core investment thesis and Hari Vasudevan (01:04:49.314) Yeah, yeah. Matt Cathell (01:04:56.309) what they were investing in and they had a major focus on the utility space. And I just felt like I would get a lot of benefit out of them, not just providing capital, but actually operational experience. And they were extremely bullish on acquisitions and putting money to work and buying companies and rolling them up and integrating them. And so that happened in May of 2020. Hari Vasudevan (01:05:25.71) Got it. Got it. I mean, honestly, for the listeners, that's how you and I met. When I was going through my majority recap, I was kind of calling on references and Matt and I connected instantly, honestly, right? At a very high level. And one of the reasons I did the deal candidly to this day truly is because of Matt Cattell. So and Matt Cathell (01:05:31.244) That's right. Hari Vasudevan (01:05:55.5) So you did the deal May 2020, obviously. Matt Cathell (01:05:58.477) Yeah, Divideo Mayo 2020, we didn't even have a corporate team built out at this point in time. Correct. It's all me. We immediately had identified a couple acquisition targets. And, you know, the main sponsor over at Ward Equity was like, all right, let's go. Let's get some acquisitions going, which I appreciated. It was my speed of operating and we were aligned from that perspective. Hari Vasudevan (01:06:03.778) At this point, it's all you, right? Yes. Matt Cathell (01:06:27.66) And so we bought a company in December of 2020. That was our first deal. Yeah. Sizable company, 30 million of revenue. mean, healthy company, all utility focused. And then we bought a company in April of 21 and then May of 21. And then at that point, Warren was like, all right, we need to help assemble the corporate team. Hari Vasudevan (01:06:34.936) That was pretty quick, man. Hari Vasudevan (01:06:41.336) Yeah. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:06:58.2) Probably little too late. Matt Cathell (01:06:59.817) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I mean, I was drowning with everything that was going on, but in their defense, they were supportive and helped, but they helped with the entire hiring process of. Hari Vasudevan (01:07:10.35) Yes. Honestly, I really want to ask you this. Having been through the journey myself, having gone through a transaction, buying companies, integrating them, by the time I integrated the acquisitions I made, I had a full management team, top class management team, best in class CFO in Larry LeBlanc, phenomenal CEO in Dan Hellman, great CHRO in David Chandler, who? Matt Cathell (01:07:24.298) Yeah. Matt Cathell (01:07:34.282) Yeah, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:07:42.058) All of you, you've kind of in some ways interacted with, right? I had a full slate of a management team. How on earth did you do it by yourself? Honestly, I it just baffles me. Matt Cathell (01:07:45.397) Right, right. Matt Cathell (01:07:54.678) Man, it baffles me too, Hari. I don't even know. Just thinking back, I don't know how I wore that many hats. And it wasn't healthy, but it just, I don't wanna abuse the word, Brazilian, but it just helped me just adapt and overcome and just be, yeah, yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:08:03.756) Yeah. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:08:14.574) Tenacious, resilient and all these kind of things helps. Matt Cathell (01:08:21.163) Yeah, so we assembled the corporate team in 2021 in the summertime. know, COO. Let's see CFO business development or CCO IT the whole deal. And then we were continuing to just kind of just go after acquisition targets and which we did. We completed 12 in a year and a half. Hari Vasudevan (01:08:44.43) Yeah, which you did. Hari Vasudevan (01:08:49.644) my god! my god! That's nuts! And then you integrate all of them. Matt Cathell (01:08:51.038) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Cathell (01:08:57.106) integrated all of them. They're in the Northeast, the Mid-Atlantic, the Southeast, South Central, just all over the place. Primarily all utility companies. Hari Vasudevan (01:09:06.094) Yeah, so, so, you know, this is an important piece of the puzzle, right? Because you integrate these companies and the company grows drastically and then you're recognized for your efforts. Listen, honestly, Matt, not everybody has done what you've done. Start a company, grow it, sell it to a private equity, continue to be a CEO, acquire 12 companies, successfully integrate them. Matt Cathell (01:09:29.627) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (01:09:35.63) And then for all these achievements, Ernst and Young recognized you as the EY Entrepreneur of the Year in 2022. Is that right? That's really a stunning deal, right? I know you don't care much for awards and recognitions, but it is a significant piece. Matt Cathell (01:09:45.616) Right, that's right. Matt Cathell (01:09:52.936) Yeah, I mean a good friend of mine encouraged me to, you know, put my name in the hat and I'm glad he did because that's not my typical personality of, you know, just trying to be out there in front of people and I'm kind of a recluse in that manner. I kind of hide behind the scenes if you know, but yes, I'm glad I did that and that was a great award to get. I met a lot of great folks that I've been able to network with and establish relations with every time. Hari Vasudevan (01:10:23.916) Yeah. So tell me this right for the listeners. You know, starting a business, growing it, selling it, integrating it. What is more challenging? Running a big business, starting a business or it's different challenges at different times? What you take on that? Matt Cathell (01:10:41.962) It's just different challenges. You know, starting a business and taking it from zero to one is just. That is on a totally different level than having something that's established and having a robust team that's helping you out and managing people. it's just, it's more, you know, tactical, I guess, in nature, kind of day to day and putting out fires when you're starting a company. And then once you get to the... Hari Vasudevan (01:11:29.026) Well, you know, some choppy there. You said once you get to something, there is some choppiness there. Matt Cathell (01:11:37.274) was just saying like, guess, know, growing your business from bootstrapping it from taking it from zero to one, you know, very tactical in nature, obviously. And then having a business that's already put together, you know, on the corporate side, it's just more of like kind of strategic planning. It's just a different skill set. I wouldn't say. Hari Vasudevan (01:12:01.325) It's like, you know, it's like, you you take the jet off and then you have to fly the jet at some point, right? Yeah. Matt Cathell (01:12:09.539) Correct. Correct. Correct. But it's both, they're both entrepreneurial in nature, but the way that I'm wired and I know you're wired, Hari, it's just like, we get a satisfaction out of being entrepreneurs and that's how we're built. And for me personally, like I didn't thrive as much in a corporate environment as I did just being very hands-on. Hari Vasudevan (01:12:24.504) Zero to one, yes. Hari Vasudevan (01:12:38.412) Yeah. Yeah, listen, I've been fired many times, right, from corporate environment. So obviously, it clearly tells you where my skins are, So that's fascinating. So, as we kind of wind down the beautiful journey you've had, what's your take? mean, you're in a very, let's call it as a hard hat business, hard hat, steel toed boots business, right? Matt Cathell (01:12:38.583) as an entrepreneur building the business. Matt Cathell (01:12:44.4) Yeah. That's right. That's right. Matt Cathell (01:12:56.034) Yeah. Matt Cathell (01:13:05.059) Yeah. Right. Hari Vasudevan (01:13:08.142) What is the impact of AI in a business like vegetation management? How do you think it's going to impact your business? Matt Cathell (01:13:18.135) You know, Hari, I don't ever see like AI taking over guys trimming trees, at least in our lifetime. However, you know, the business that you've created and built at ThinkPower, you know, having those tools I could see from a planning perspective and helping utilities. with identifying hazardous trees. I think there's definitely a play there, but as far as replacing your traditional hard hat tree trimmer, I don't know that that's in the near future. Now, it wouldn't surprise me if some brilliant guy came up with some drone, which I know they've explored, but it hasn't been conquered yet. Hari Vasudevan (01:14:13.858) Yeah, now know what I've seen is some utilities doing. I'm sure Georgia power your customers may be doing it is like you're right planning right using LIDAR data to better plan wedge management. You know AI analytics combined with LIDAR data to better plan wedge management right center point energy is able to predict outages which fuse are going to have outages based on the path of the storm and hence. Matt Cathell (01:14:23.075) Yeah. Matt Cathell (01:14:42.904) Right. Hari Vasudevan (01:14:43.726) line up veg management crews ahead of the storm so that they can kind of trim trees ahead of time. So those are the kind of impact that I see happening. Do you see things? Yeah, and instead of going 100 miles trimming everything on the pathway, more focus trimming and things like that. So, So, no, that's great. Matt Cathell (01:14:51.509) Right. Matt Cathell (01:14:56.98) Absolutely. Matt Cathell (01:15:04.575) Absolutely correct. That's right. Matt Cathell (01:15:11.202) Hey, Horry, heads up, I've gotta get my girls here in a minute. But just, I lost track of time. Hari Vasudevan (01:15:14.806) Yeah, yes, yes. So yeah, no, it's fascinating. My friend, fascinating discussion. Thank you so much for being on the show, the entrepreneurial journey that you shared. I learned a lot about you, honestly, right? I think we're going to have to Matt Cathell (01:15:29.45) Absolutely. Matt Cathell (01:15:34.25) know there are probably some things that we didn't talk about before that you yeah, you learned today. Hari Vasudevan (01:15:37.804) Yeah, absolutely. Listen, it's a fascinating journey. think there's more we can actually talk and share with our audience. Let's do one more round, round two down the road. We appreciate you being on the show. Good luck on your journey and. Matt Cathell (01:15:46.284) Yeah, let's do it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks for putting this together. I think a lot of kids, you know, can learn what their future holds if they just pursue their passions. So. Hari Vasudevan (01:16:01.487) pursue their passion, be resilient and not let their own shortcomings define them. Because we all have something. Overcome your adversity, be resilient and push through. Everybody can be successful. If you want to go to college, there's a way to pay for it. Take care, my friend. Bye, see you. Matt Cathell (01:16:04.524) Yeah. Matt Cathell (01:16:09.815) That's right. That's right. Matt Cathell (01:16:15.104) Yes. For sure. That's right. Yeah, exactly. All right, Harry, see you,
