Hari Vasudevan (00:03.169) All right, welcome to a new episode of From Boots to Boardroom. Not every leader sits in a corner office. From Boots to Boardroom shares the journey of those who power America, from the job site to the boardroom with grit, tenacity, empathy, and vision. They're the real leaders. Today's episode is sponsored by KYRO AI. Jeff White (00:11.21) It's. Hari Vasudevan (00:34.113) digitize work and maximize profits. For more information, visit kyro.ai. Today's guest is Jeff White. Jeff is an expert in human performance and helped me tremendously in establishing a great culture at ThinkPower Solutions. Truth be told, he joined me at ThinkPower when it was at its absolute lowest moment, when there was an incident that we were involved in, leading to a loss of life, unfortunately. And we had just lost a contract, five-year contract worth $60 million from Entergy. Nobody would have touched me with a hundred foot pole. But here is a man who decided to help a young entrepreneur and... Jeff White (01:29.645) . Hari Vasudevan (01:34.601) set the stage to completely revamp ThinkPower solutions and lead it towards success. Jeff, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. It's an honor to have you on the show. Jeff White (01:47.715) Thank you, Hari. Those are some kind words and I would back up and say that Jeff White is not an expert. Jeff White is a practitioner. Hari Vasudevan (01:55.975) All right. So let's get rolling here. So, you have a super interesting and truly a Boots to Boardroom story here. You started off as a helper, if I remember right, and went all the way to be the manager of human performance and skills training at Southern Company within their various entities, operating companies, and then went on to advise Truly, boardrooms, CEOs, CXOs. Where did it all get started for you? Give us the origin story. Jeff White (02:36.461) Okay, so without being too long or too boring, I think a quick history of my experience might help launch human performance in the discussion. I did start out in 1978 as a helper, which was a real nice word for janitor, if you will, with Alabama Power Company. My tools were a mop and a broom. I had gone to junior college about a year and a half. I had a little bit of education. but went to work with a power company because they were paying so much better than a coach and a teacher was at that time. So I progressed through the power company from a helper to a tree trimmer to a truck operator to an apprentice lineman in both the transmission and distribution crews to journeyman lineman in both the transmission and distribution crews. And while I was a journeyman, I decided to go back to school. So two nights a week and on some weekends for three years without taking a break, I climbed poles during the day and sat in the classroom for four hours at night until I got a degree in business, bachelor's degree in business. And that opened up some doors for me. At the time in 1990, there were not too many journeyman linemen with four year degrees. And of those opportunities, I selected to go into the safety department. And I spent 13 years in safety and health at Alabama Power. Spent more time in the regulatory world than I did out on the field with the crews, but I did a little bit of both. But after 13 years in safety and health, I decided to try something different. So I got my first supervisor's job at Panama City Beach, Florida, the engineering construction supervisor on the beach. Now that's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it. A lot of distractions, right? Hari Vasudevan (04:32.302) I mean, I know! You got a lot to complain about, being in a beach, right? So who gave you the job, man? Jeff White (04:33.771) We're going to talk about distractions here in a minute. Jeff White (04:40.5) Yeah, yeah, but probably one of the best jobs I've ever had in my life was working with people from both engineering and construction and maintenance, just the full gamut of people in the electric utility industry, and could have retired there, was very happy there. However, an opportunity came open at Mississippi Power as the manager of safety and skills training. And my heart was in safety and training. So I accepted that position, interviewed and accepted that position and thought that I would retire there. So, here I have worked for Alabama Power. I had gone to Gulf Power in Panama City and now I'm with Mississippi Power in Gulfport, Mississippi. When I first heard the term human performance and I saw a presentation on human performance and then I was approached. by some leaders at Southern Company and said, we think you would be a good person to introduce and integrate human performance at Southern Company on the non-nuclear side. Now, the nuclear industry had been in human performance probably since Three Mile Island, right? But, never in the T&D world. The more I read about human performance, the more I learned about human performance, I thought, you know, this is what we've been missing in this industry for years. So, I accepted the role as the human performance coordinator for Southern Company and we started in just the transmission area, transmission lines, transmission subs and it grew very quickly. So, I think I was probably a good candidate for that role for a number of reasons. Number one is I like to talk as you can tell and also through my years of experience, I had done everything from a janitor to a journeyman and also a supervisor and a manager. And I knew a lot of people across the Southern Company footprint working in three of the four operating companies. So, I think that set me up good for my role in human performance. Hari Vasudevan (06:42.519) Yeah, that's great. mean, honestly, you know, when you say Three Mile Island, know, you recently, you know that because of increased demand for power driven by artificial intelligence, they're reopening that. I believe Microsoft is going to operate that. I mean, not reopening. Microsoft is going to operate that. Right. I think something like that. But anyway, for those who may not be familiar with human performance. If you had an elevator pitch, 20 seconds, how would you define human performance? Jeff White (07:18.57) So, when I use the word human performance, that includes HP, which I like to use for human performance. It also includes HU, which the nuclear world uses that acronym. It also includes an acronym that's used a lot today, is HOP, which is human and organizational performance, as well as HPI, which is human performance improvement. But, when I hear any of those acronyms, I think about the same thing. And that is, it's an operating philosophy. that recognizes that people make mistakes, that we're human. And it really examines a different way of a way of thinking away from blame and more to learning. And I'll leave it at that until we get further into the discussion. Hari Vasudevan (08:06.647) So, to err is human, that's the basis on which human performance is built. Right? So, I learned from you that on an average human beings makes three to five mistakes every hour. Many of those mistakes, we just don't realize we're making, but we are making and they don't have that much of an impact. So, we kind of shrug it off and move on. We don't even realize it even to shrug off. But under duress, under stress, under strain, under pressure, we make 12 to 15 mistakes an hour. That's a lot! So, multiply the three to five by four, you're 12 to 15, which means when you make more mistakes, the odds of one of those mistakes, cascading into a much bigger issue is very high. mean that is the reason why we're trying to put in HP so that you're not making those big mistakes. Is that a good way to think about it, Jeff? Jeff White (09:10.75) Absolutely. I mean, when you put pressure on a human being in a stressful environment, and we try to do things faster and easier, quicker, our mind may be not focusing on things we ought to be focusing on, the probability of making that mistake increases and the consequences usually are more severe. Hari Vasudevan (09:32.309) Yes. Okay. So, now that we've kind of introduced HP, what is HP? Give me some of the basic principles of HP to the listener. I think about it. At ThinkPower, we had, and KYRO, honestly, we had, you know, five years and two, three years respectively to kind of roll out human performance. We had a lot of time. Here, people are going to listen to 30 minutes 40 minutes so, they have to really understand that right. It goes to the very essence of how you and I met originally right. I had hosted a session on human performance back in 2013 or 14 at Edison Electric Institute. hosted Kent Peterson from Xcel Energy. And when it was time to introduce human performance to ThinkPower, I reached out to Kent. He connected me with you. I spoke to you and others. And the reason I'm saying this is I had two fundamental options. One is to have a homegrown approach to human performance. The other was, you know, consultants would come in, train people, certify them. Move on, one time training. Jeff White (10:23.945) . Hari Vasudevan (10:45.083) and you know certification was attractive to a lot of people a lot of companies and whereas, I really wanted to get my own hands dirty make it part of the DNA of the company make it part of the culture of the company so, two different approaches one is consultant comes in certifies you and everybody gets a certificate moves on one time What we did was took the harder route, invested time, effort, money, dedicated resources, and developed a homegrown approach, right? That kind of ingrained into the culture of the company, psychological safety, and just culture. that allowed truly entrepreneurial spirit to flourish at both the companies I founded and one I still run today, KYRO. So let's kind of, with that background there, can you kind of explain a little bit briefly about human performance principles and how companies can benefit from them, if you will? Jeff White (11:55.319) Yeah, so when I hear the term human performance principles, I think about the foundation of human performance. And you can look in textbooks and you can see the five fundamentals, the five principles of human performance. And examples are, like you mentioned a minute ago, humans are fallible, right? We're going to make mistakes. You know, my mentor, the gentleman who taught me everything I know primarily about human performance was Dr. Todd Conklin. Dr. Todd Conklin, one of the smartest men I've ever met and is, you know, famous worldwide, I would say. He always said, you cannot give out enough gift cards to prevent a human from making a mistake. Humans will make mistakes. And that stuck with me. You you said a minute ago, Hari, to err is human, right? Since I've been in this human performance or HOP or HPI world, it's amazing to me how many times I catch myself making mistakes and I just have to smile, you know? But to err is human. Humans are fallible. That's a principle, a foundation. You know, another is that you get great performance. when you value employees. know, it may be, the principle may be worded differently, but that's what I read, is you take employees, good employees, and you encourage them, and you reward them, and you say, thank you, or you â“ them for their ideas, what you're gonna get is great performance. If an employee thinks that you are just standing there or sitting there waiting for them to make a mistake so that you can hammer them, Hari Vasudevan (13:33.343) Yeah. Yeah. Jeff White (13:42.267) You're not going to get a whole lot out of them. You're going to get enough work out of them so they can maintain their job, but not a whole lot of discretionary effort, right? And you're a great example. The way you value your employees, they wanted to work hard for you. They were proud to work for ThinkPower Solutions. To me, that's another great principle. Probably the greatest principle for me is you prevent future unwanted events. Hari Vasudevan (14:11.063) jeff Just before you go to the next one, I'm pausing here. My team elated a little bit. You're cutting in and out. Your internet is going in and out, so I just want to give you a little bit of a pause there. But essentially, what you're talking about is building a high-performance organization where Jeff White (14:13.114) by learning. Hari Vasudevan (14:36.309) you know, you don't hammer failure. In fact, you encouraged calculated risk taking. if there's a failure, we learn why the failure happened, why the incident happened. And then, you know, the entire organization learns from it. so that we all get better and not necessarily... failure is not a purative event, right? Unless it's deliberate, deliberate somebody is trying to do something just to cause a failure, right? That's the only time you do it. So before you go to the next one, do you want to... you're kind of grainy, if you will. Your video is a little grainy. Jeff White (15:16.387) Yeah, can we're having some severe weather right now, some thunderstorms and rain. I don't know if that's affecting our discussion or not. Because you're cutting out quite a bit with me as well. Hari Vasudevan (15:32.651) Yeah, we'll just give it a couple of seconds here. might get better. Jeff White (15:45.029) Just gonna see if I could. Jeff White (15:50.265) Can I leave for a second and come back? Hari Vasudevan (15:52.703) Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Jeff White (15:54.201) Hang on, hang on one second. Jeff White (16:39.053) Is that any better? Hari Vasudevan (16:40.375) Way better, I don't know what you did. Jeff White (16:43.811) went and changed my wifi to a different one. Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (16:48.853) Yeah. Okay. Do you want to get started from the principles, again, the principles of human performance? And then we'll kind of cut it out. Jeff White (16:51.662) What up? Hari Vasudevan (17:00.907) This is really better by the way. Jeff White (17:01.231) Yeah, Is that better? Okay. I wondered if maybe this signal would be a little better with this storm. I'm hoping this storm passes pretty quick. Hari Vasudevan (17:05.109) way better. Hari Vasudevan (17:15.713) Yep. Yep. So all right, let's get rolling. I mean, we were talking about the principles of human performance. You want to get started again on that? Yes, sir. Go for it. It's recording. Jeff White (17:24.58) Yeah, you ready for me to start? Yeah, so when I hear the term human performance, I think about the foundation of human performance, you know, and you've talked about them already when you talked about to err is human, Principle number one, and probably the most important one is, is that as humans, we're gonna make mistakes. You know, I surprise myself every day when I recognize that I'm still making mistakes. And different people say you make different numbers during the day or during the hour. But the fact is we make a lot of mistakes. Another principle is if you want to have high performance from your employees, you need to value your employees. Employees who are encouraged, who are rewarded, who are thanked, who are involved are going to give you better results. so many times in my career, i have heard employees say, that the company was just waiting for them to make a mistake that they felt like a gun was pointed at him with a hammer cocked just waiting for a mistake to occur so they could they could discipline them now that wasn't true but the fact that the employees felt that way affected their performance you know another Hari Vasudevan (18:45.783) But, the organization, the foundation of the organization might lead the employees to believe in that. It's like managers might be incentivized to be political. Your end goal is always, at least in the companies I run, it's always the customer, the employees, and if you take care of them, the investors will be happy. It's a very simple way of approaching things. So, essentially you're talking about listening to your employees and hearing them out. And if there are good ideas, implement them. Building a high-performance organization. If your employees are heard, if calculated risk-taking is encouraged, In many ways, if you're not failing enough, that means you're not pushing the envelope enough. You're not being entrepreneurial. So, if you take those calculated risks and still fail, let's learn collectively what the issues are, what caused the failure. Or is it really a failure or is it a stepping stone to your greater success? So how do you build an entrepreneurial organization with just culture and a high performance organization? That's truly what we're talking about is when you're listening to employees, make it easy for them to provide feedback and they see that you've actually, you know, listening to them, you're listening to them and you know take on some of their ideas, they feel valued at the end of the day and that's the only way you can build a high performance environment and a great place to work at end of the day. Jeff White (20:31.575) Yeah, and I'll follow up with two other quick principles. One is what the organization values is what's going to drive the employee's behavior. Now that's a mouthful, but when you think about it, you know, in our industry, in the electric utility industry, especially from a lineman's perspective, the company values getting the lights turned on and keeping them on, and when they go out, get them back on as quick as possible, right? Speed, speed, speed. Does that influence the behavior of the linemen that are out in the field? Sure it does. Sure it does. So, and there's nothing wrong with being efficient. There's nothing wrong being productive. There's nothing wrong with getting the lights back on as quick as possible. But we need to make sure that the organization also values the wellbeing of the employee when they're giving this message out. Hari Vasudevan (21:28.639) Yeah. Jeff White (21:29.626) And then the last thing I'll say about the principles are, and to me this is the most important, this is the part of human performance that really got my attention. And that is, why are we having the same types of accidents over and over, year after year? because we focus on blaming and discipline and not learning. Think about that. And that's one of the reasons that my boss at the time, Mr. Billy Ball, Mr. William Ball, the reason that he introduced human performance to the non-nuclear side of Southern Company was because it was driving him crazy that he was seeing the same accidents year after year. And he said, you know what, we got great employees. They're making the same mistake. It's not them, it's us. We're not learning. Hari Vasudevan (22:19.423) Absolutely. It's interesting you say that because that's the first thing you got to look at. mean you always, you know, that's a really good segue into something you used to talk about quite often which is, you know, how gas stations evolved, right? Can you kind of talk a little bit about it to our listeners here as to how, you know, back in the day, drivers used to forget that the nozzle was in the car and drive away and cause a of accidents. Can you kind of explain that thing and how that process changed so that human error doesn't affect that issue there? Jeff White (22:59.008) Yeah, so you're going to make me tell them myself here, Hari. Several years ago, driving late at night, after midnight, someone else's vehicle, we stopped at a service station to fill up with gas. I did not get out of the car, but my relative got out and pumped the gas in the car and told me when he got out, he said, I'm going to fill the vehicle up. with gas and then I'm going inside to get me a drink and a pack of cheese crackers, right? So, I'm sitting in the driver's seat. I never took my seatbelt off. I see my relative filling up with gas and then in a minute I see him going to the service station because he told me after I get through filling up with gas, I'm going to get a diet coke and a pack of cheese crackers, right? Well, a gentleman behind me in a pickup truck blows his horn. Hari Vasudevan (23:58.497) Pressure. There's the pressure. Jeff White (23:59.487) Yeah, yeah. And my thought is he wants me to get out of the way because he knows that we're through filling up. He wants to come up to the pump, right? So, in my mind, I said, be a gentleman, you know, be a good person, get out of the way. So, I put the vehicle in drive and I go to pull off. And as I pull off, I feel a tug. And I realized that the hose was still in the tank. I had pulled away from the pump and the hose was still on I was so embarrassed. I mean, this doesn't happen to me, right? This happens to other people. Well, I get out and there's no... Hari Vasudevan (24:34.593) Well, at least not supposed to, but it did happen. It did happen. Jeff White (24:37.352) It did happen, right? I get out and there's no gas on the ground. There's no gas on the concrete. And this probably eight, 10 feet piece of hose was still stuck. The nozzle was stuck in the tank and I'm pulling the hose behind me and I'm thinking, this is weird, you know? So, as embarrassed as I was, I went into the station and I told the young lady, I'm sorry, but I have pulled your gas hose away from your pump. Well, she acted like it was no big deal. She said, you know, No problem, sir. You have two options. She said, you can either give me your credit card and pay for the damages upfront, or we can call the police so, they can come out here and run a report and send you a bill. And I said, don't call the police. Don't call the police. Right. But anyway, I was so embarrassed when I got home. I got out my iPhone and I Googled how many people pull away from the pump and take the hose with them, right? I was so embarrassed. And what I learned was, is that this happens about once per month at every service station across America. Now it didn't make me feel any better, but I thought, my goodness, They don't have signs up warning you, They don't have an attendant out there to tell you don't pull away yet, the hose is still in. It's kind of just all up to you. But what they've done is, Hari Vasudevan (26:01.74) Yeah. Jeff White (26:05.024) They haven't tried to fix the human, but they have fixed the system. They put a disconnect in the hose so that because so many people pull away, it just simply disconnects the hose and no gas goes on the ground, on the concrete. And other than being embarrassed and having to pay $125, it was it was no big deal. But again, to me, that's human performance or human and organizational performance. Hari Vasudevan (26:08.566) Yes. Jeff White (26:34.632) or system improvements, right? They didn't try to fix the human and the human error, they fixed the system so, the gas doesn't go everywhere. Hari Vasudevan (26:36.694) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (26:41.919) Yeah, so, essentially when I see a gas hose lying on the ground at a gas station, that's what it is. guess somebody just forgot and went away and whatever, right? So yes. No, all right. So, So, you know, that's a really good way to explain to our audience here, what human performance is. You put enough Jeff White (26:51.965) Yeah, yeah. It wasn't me though. Hari Vasudevan (27:08.855) process checks and balances in place to mitigate the impact of a human error. to the least factor as much as possible at the end of the day. Right. So, you know, your case is a classic example. Earlier in the show, we talked about three to five errors per hour. Average human being under stress, 12 to 15 errors. Somebody honked behind you. You thought you were clearly self-inflicted pressure, but you clearly were under pressure and you you didn't think and that led to you know loss of money which could have been more you know catastrophic but clearly not in this case right so, that's what we're trying to do is to when linemen are doing dangerous jobs all those jobs that you listed earlier on during your intro from helper to linemen to apprentice journeyman linemen on the distribution side transmission side very dangerous jobs so, HP essentially tries to make that a little bit more safer. Having said that, that's a great segue. Our listeners really are wondering at this point what is the difference between safety and human performance? Can you educate us on that? Jeff White (28:32.764) Yeah. so, that is a great question and a question that probably is not discussed enough. When we talk about human performance, we're talking about the human element, right? Humans are gonna make mistakes. So, when they do make mistakes and there are failures, we wanna fail safe. When I was climbing a pole back in the 70s and 80s, we did not put the belt, the safety strap around the pole until we finished climbing to where we were going. Whether it was 20 feet, 30 feet, or 100 feet, you did not put that safety strap around that pole or you would have been called a name by the other lineman, right? Hari Vasudevan (29:14.561) Wait, that's dangerous, man. Jeff White (29:16.786) Well, we didn't know any better. That's the way we were taught, right? That was part of the job. And it was only, it was only. Hari Vasudevan (29:22.411) Yeah. And of course you had to be macho, you're a lineman. Nothing can happen to you. Jeff White (29:27.033) Absolutely, absolutely. And it was only until so many linemen cut out and fell that somebody had the grit, had the courage to say, we're better than this. We're better than this. We ought to have a safety strap around that pole the entire time we're climbing and we can eliminate cut out and falls altogether. This is an accident we can eliminate. That's the way we ought to be thinking, right? It doesn't make you any less of a man to put that safety strap around that pole. You know, the other thing is safety and human performance really fit hand in glove. They really do. But human performance is so much more than just safety. It does not matter in what industry you work, what job title you have. If you are a human, human performance Hari Vasudevan (29:53.717) Yes. Hari Vasudevan (29:59.467) Yes. Jeff White (30:20.743) Human performance improvement, human and organizational performance is part of your life. For example, for example. Hari Vasudevan (30:28.565) Well, your family is an organization, the end of the day, you gotta, you know, it helps in everyday work, but keep going. Everyday life rather. Jeff White (30:31.674) Absolutely. Jeff White (30:37.283) It doesn't look does a human error in accounting and finance. Could that result in catastrophic failure? Hari Vasudevan (30:46.709) Well, I can tell you, when I was running ThinkPower about five years back, we almost lost $10 million because of exactly what you're talking about, poor practices in accounting and finance. Since then, I hired who arguably is the best CFO in the industry, and he's taken it to the next level by using some HP principles. But you're right, it could happen. Jeff White (31:14.034) Yeah, yeah. So, you ask any employee in an organization, regardless of what organization it is, you ask them, is there an opportunity where a human mistake could end up in a catastrophic consequence? And the answer is going to be yes, right? So, then the next question is, can you identify, can you share how that could happen? It may be far-fetched, but can you share how that could happen? And if that answer is probably yes, then your next question is, what can we do today? What control can we put in place today that would prevent that? Catch that and prevent that. It's not safety. It could be anything. Hari Vasudevan (31:51.222) Yes. Hari Vasudevan (31:56.715) Yes. What controls can you put in place so, that what is intended to happen is what happens majority or most of the time? That's the key. That's the key there. Jeff White (32:07.609) Absolutely. One of the biggest learnings, one of the biggest learnings that we had, when I was at Southern Company had nothing to do with safety. It had to do with customer service and accounting. And every employee did everything right by the book. There was no finger to point at anybody. But, the system was so designed that the checks and balances were not in place to prevent this catastrophic event from occurring. Hari Vasudevan (32:22.017) Yeah. Jeff White (32:37.499) and it was a customer service failure. We unintentionally mistreated a customer and it took an event learning process. It took a group of folks who were involved in human performance to go in there and not to say, why did you do this or why didn't you do that, but, to say, how did we get here? What did we set out to accomplish? and how are we accomplishing it and then the error, then you know the hole, the gap, the shortcoming shows itself. It's a different approach. Hari Vasudevan (33:16.439) Interesting. All right. So that's a good, really good overview of how HP helps. Let's get into error prevention tools, right? Human performance error prevention tools. Can you give our listeners here a brief overview of HP error prevention tools? Jeff White (33:40.035) Yeah, so we talked about the err is human, right? And and depending on what you're doing, the pressures that are involved in the job could could increase the probability of those errors occurring so, Jeff White (33:55.93) The introduction of human performance tools, or error prevention tools are designed, every one of them are designed primarily to do two things. One is to slow the worker down. As workers, we've been trained since we were in kindergarten to do things fast, read fast, walk fast, right? Everything's based on speed. Everything's based on time. So, a human performance or an error prevention tool is designed to slow the human down. And the other thing it does, by design. Hari Vasudevan (34:27.061) by design slow you down to eventually accelerate the end result because you're making less mistakes. Jeff White (34:38.108) Slow me down so, I have time to engage my brain. Slow me down so, I stop and take a breath and I say, you know what? I need to make sure I do this. I need to make sure I've already done this. You know, whether it's a 60, a one minute rule, a one minute timeout, whether it's a checklist. I mean, how often do we use checklists? How often do we put reminders on our iPhones? Why do men put their keys and wallet in the same place every night when they go to bed, right? Hari Vasudevan (34:41.707) Yes. Hari Vasudevan (34:59.009) all the time. Hari Vasudevan (35:08.213) Yeah, you know, but you but, you know that you say that, but you know, my kids move my wallet and phones and keys all over the place. So, every day is in a different spot, man. I don't know what to do. Jeff White (35:08.411) These are all human performance tools. Jeff White (35:22.499) Yeah. Yeah. So, that's what that's what error prevention tools do is they slow us down so, that we have time to really think about what we're doing and make sure that we're doing it with total confidence that we accomplish what we set out to accomplish no more, no less. And that when we're through, we look back and we say, job well done, right? And here's the trip cord, right? Distractions. Hari Vasudevan (35:39.83) Yeah. Hari Vasudevan (35:45.311) Awesome, awesome, listen. Hari Vasudevan (35:53.207) And there lots of them today. There are lots of them today. Jeff White (35:53.262) How many times have you been doing something perfectly and you got distracted and then you realize, my goodness, I forgot to do something or I did it wrong? Hari Vasudevan (36:04.663) Really you forget what you're doing. mean honestly when you're working out for example or swimming laps or doing whatever you do you kind of forget which lap you're in or which set you're in because your mind wanders away from you right so you got to bring it back. Jeff White (36:20.299) Absolutely. Hari Vasudevan (36:23.069) And that happens all the time, especially in today's day and age of distracted driving. I see people just driving like this all the time with their phone in front of them. It's honestly, it scares scares me to death. And we just, you know, but, know, it may be their fault, but it's still our accident. Right. So we got to be very careful about it. So it's great stuff. So let's jump into a few things here. So let's what do you think of AI, Jeff? Jeff White (36:41.166) Yep. Yep. Jeff White (36:53.338) At my age, it's still kind of strange to me. I'm from that generation that kind of stayed away from computers and were skeptics. And I have a lot to learn about AI, but the more I learn, I'm fascinated by it. Hari Vasudevan (37:11.169) Yeah, yeah. Do you use AI? You do not use AI. So you don't use AI for anything at all. Jeff White (37:13.954) I do not. Jeff White (37:19.576) No. Now, if it can help my golf game, Hari, I'm interested in that. Hari Vasudevan (37:25.743) You know, people are, you know, people have always wondered, Jeff, but I want to ask you this. They've always wondered how did how did an immigrant from India and a redneck from Alabama work so well together? Can you please can you please explain to people what's the secret sauce there? I mean, I run an AI company. You don't even use AI. You want AI to help you with golf? Can tell me how did it happen? What's the secret for our success here. Jeff White (37:57.672) I think it has a lot to do with our personalities. I think we have a lot more in common than we have differences. You you talked about Kent Peterson, who introduced us. You know, Kent told me, he said, this guy, this guy's from India and he's hard to understand and he talks real fast, but he's really, really smart. And I think you'll enjoy meeting him. And he was right on target. I'm intrigued by your energy. Hari Vasudevan (38:18.472) Hahaha! Okay. Jeff White (38:25.143) I'm intrigued by how smart you are. And that interests me. And I know you're interested in my Southern dialect, aren't you? Hari Vasudevan (38:31.566) I mean just- I agree with you on that. It's good stuff. So, rapid fire questions, Jeff. Does it make you sweat? you sweating already? NFL versus college football. Jeff White (38:46.658) Probably. Jeff White (38:53.794) College. Hari Vasudevan (38:55.562) Interesting why? Jeff White (38:56.984) We don't have an NFL team in Alabama. So, we choose between Alabama and Auburn. And as soon as you get of age old enough to understand, you're asked, take a pick. You gotta pick one or the other. Hari Vasudevan (39:12.179) Interesting. That's a great segue. Auburn Tigers with Alabama Tide. Jeff White (39:17.538) Alabama Crimson Tide. Hari Vasudevan (39:19.345) Wow! Wow! Alright, well then let's keep going then. Nick Saban was Kalen DeBoer Jeff White (39:27.415) I gotta go with Saban. Hari Vasudevan (39:29.417) He's giving you how many? Seven championships? Is that right? Six or seven. Jeff White (39:32.247) Yes, six at Alabama, one at LSU. Hari Vasudevan (39:35.599) LSU. So, what do you what do you say to I have some friends here who have season ticket holders or season ticket holders LSU. What do you what do you think of LSU fans? Jeff White (39:47.673) I think they got some great fans and they got a great football team. But, if I had a choice and I was Nick Saban, I'd rather go to Alabama than LSU any day. Hari Vasudevan (39:58.263) You'll just be, why is that? Jeff White (40:00.051) I think it's just a step up. You're not gonna get me trouble, Hari. You're not gonna get me to say the wrong thing. I have LSU friends. Hari Vasudevan (40:03.091) Interesting. Hari Vasudevan (40:10.743) I'm really needling you. I'm really needling you. You you guys gave I think 87 and a half million bucks to Kalen DeBoer and they gave what, 100 million bucks to Kelly, Brian Kelly? You know, I don't know if anyone is gonna bring you a championship. So, next question, Jim Harbaugh. Jeff White (40:13.012) I know, I know. Jeff White (40:24.664) Brian Kelly. Jeff White (40:34.008) What about him? Hari Vasudevan (40:35.031) What do you think? Jeff White (40:39.86) Interesting. Puzzling. Hari Vasudevan (40:41.111) What is that? Jeff White (40:49.336) I don't know, where he's coming from at times. Some of his comments and actions are puzzling. Hari Vasudevan (40:52.457) Interesting. It's check. khaki pants and the intensity well he got a championship is that a legitimate is that a legitimate championship or is is that does it come with an asterisk okay all right that's good Arch Manning Jeff White (41:02.617) yeah. Yeah. Jeff White (41:08.113) I think it's legit. Jeff White (41:15.319) I hope he's not as good as advertised, but I'm afraid he is. Hari Vasudevan (41:20.695) Interesting. So, sounds like you guys are scared to see him this season, huh? Jeff White (41:28.267) Well, everything I've read and everything I've seen, I think he's the real deal. You know, he comes from great stock, great DNA. From what I understand, he's a great individual, good guy, has a lot of humility. And it's hard not to pull for somebody like that. I just hope he has one bad game. Hari Vasudevan (41:45.663) Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, you know, they say that the UT football, you know, today under Sarkisian is is pretty much the same as what Saban built for you guys in in Alabama at Crimson Tide. And. They have more money and they obviously have the brand recognition. They have Arch Manning. So, you know, let's see. Only time will tell. Obviously, you know, Saban won six championships and they're still getting started there. So, let's see what happens. You're president for a day, Jeff. Final question on the rapid fire. You're president for a day, right? Assuming you have full control of Congress, right? Senate, House. Jeff White (42:25.655) I do away with taxes for all seniors. Hari Vasudevan (42:38.539) What do do? Hari Vasudevan (42:46.985) Interesting. Interesting. No taxes at all. For seniors. And why is that? Jeff White (42:48.661) Yeah, yeah. No taxes at all. I think by the time you get to be 65 years old or older, you've given a lot. You're kind of, for most people, on a fixed income. You may want to go back and do some more work. You may have something to offer. But I think, many times the tax code that we live under is discouraging. And I think there are people, I think there are a lot of seniors. And when I say seniors, I'm talking about, you know, 65 to 75 who still have a lot to offer, but they choose not to because of the... tax consequences. Hari Vasudevan (43:35.658) Interesting, interesting. Yeah, you know, obviously you retired before you came and helped me and was beyond helpful for me. I mean, obviously contributed heavily to the economy because of the success of ThinkPower and KYRO. That's an interesting thought process there. hopefully, hopefully people are listening and you know, somebody will take up your, you know. Ask there. So, you know there are obviously problems, other problems in the world. If there is one global problem you would solve, what would that be? Jeff White (44:03.67) you Jeff White (44:13.462) Probably child trafficking. Hari Vasudevan (44:16.147) Interesting. Interesting. Jeff White (44:17.364) That bothers me a lot. I have a tender heart, when it comes to children and to see children mistreated really bothers me. Hari Vasudevan (44:25.225) Interesting, interesting. Jeff White (44:26.422) I try not to get upset. I try not to show a temper. But when you start hurting children, you start really bothering me. Hari Vasudevan (44:36.949) bothering you and obviously it significantly impacts the next generation, right? You corrupt a young mind in some way, shape or form that has a long lasting impact for the rest of the child's life. And, you know, I've seen this where the family, the next few generations struggle, right? Because, you know, the repercussions carry forward for several generations forward. So, now that's That's, that's it. That's a wrap. But listen, I genuinely appreciate the relationship. I genuinely appreciate you coming on the show. I hope the listeners find this conversation to be worth their time. And I mean it in as deep as my heart can go. Every sincere word I can say is if there are a handful of people who make, you know, immeasurable difference to ThinkPower and to KYRO. Jeff White would be in the top of that list, right? One of the top five in that list. And, I deeply appreciate you helping me set up phenomenal companies that have the potential to have sustained success. And, you know, deeply appreciate the relationship. And every time I call you, answer the phone, and you're there to counsel me. Appreciate it. Jeff White (45:58.764) Well, you're a kind gentleman, Hari. And, I feel the same way about you that you just stated you feel about me. And I'll say this. When we talk about human performance, it is not smoke and mirrors. It is not the marketing ploy of the day or the month. It's not the magical one or anything. It's just a different way of thinking that recognizes that we're human, right? We're just human. And we're trying to do the best we can. And, you've done a great job at both ThinkPower Solutions and at KYRO in getting the buy-in from your employees because you treat them right. And I appreciate that. Hari Vasudevan (46:39.799) I appreciate the kind words there. Jeff White, thank you so much. I know you're retired, but if people want to reach you, is there a way that they can reach you to help them consult with HP? Jeff White (46:54.611) Yeah, sure. If somebody has questions and I can help them in any way, they can reach out to me. I guess the best way to do it would be by email. And that's just simply jeffwhiteconsulting @ gmail.com Hari Vasudevan (47:08.725) Yep, yep. They should do the heavy lifting and, you're there to provide guidance. So Jeff White, thank you so much for being on the show. Appreciate it. Jeff White (47:17.63) Thank you, buddy.
